January 14th, 2008

[Rabid Garfunkel]

Your bringing me down fluffy, your bringing me down.

Who invited Tad G.? Heh. Even if it was unintentional, that brought a chuckle to my sick-ass self. Cough-hack-choke.

[Niveous]

QotD: Depression, huh.

Well, I've been dealing with depression for a long time now. I think it's pretty well chronicled around here, with me writing a whole album about my depression experience and then bailing out because it was still too raw for me to deal with. But the long and short of it is that I always knew that something was up. I had a lot of those "black days" and then 3 years ago, it came to a head. Hospitalization, drugs, therapy, time...and now I'm in a better place. Never will I say that I'm better or cured. I'm just back to relative high functioning. It affects a lot of aspects of my everyday like my moods and my focus.

I think Fluffy has a good grasp on what it means to have depression. LoO. i think you may have it a bit convoluted but then again, this is LoO. I'm tempted to use your catchphrase but I will restrain myself. And Anti-M is right, psychiatrist over psychologist.

[erik]

Everyone I've ever known who described themselves as "depressed" ....

I'm going to take the first part of that sentence as a disclaimer. Otherwise your statement would suggest that nobody could tell if they were ACTUALLY depressed and would only be CLAIMING so for attention. So I'd like to believe that you only made the statement based on people YOU'VE known.

I was talking about the people that I know when I said "everyone I've ever known". I would never be so bold to make a blanket statement about everyone who has ever felt depressed. And I certainly didn't mean that you can't figure out what's up with yourself, Hobby Lobby.

[Billy's Little Trip]

It looks like all of the posts are about depression, from the best that I can tell, except maybe Hoblit's hate issues.
I am not depressed. I suffer from social anxieties. So when I said I power through them, I honestly am powering through, "what I feel" is a life or death situation. But as the years have gone by, I've come to realize that I always live. But unfortunately the feeling of being a trapped animal facing imminent danger, is always there. It really sucks. I wish it could be washed out of my brain, because now that I know it's there, I can never forget the feeling.
I've never had professional help, and I don't know if there is a permanent cure. But I do know that depressants work. 10 milligrams of Valium makes me feel normal, where as it would make a "normal" person waisted. But I don't want to be addicted to pills anymore, and haven't been for 12 years now.
As far as black days, I don't have black day. I have days that I can stay in my comfort zone more than others, but I live with my anxieties every minute of every day, including my dreams.
But if you were standing in front of me, or hanging out with me, you would never know. Even though there is a constant war in my head, I seem very calm on the outside.

Things I avoid:
Being a passenger in a car.
Being in a car with people that aren't my immediate Family or someone I know well.
Crowded places
Any place that I lose the control of leaving whenever I want, that very second.
Entering a room and the door being locked behind me
I scope out every exit when ever I enter a building. It doesn't matter if it's someones house or Mc Donald's, I need to know.
I haven't been on a plane since I was 18. I'd have to be on tranquilizers to fly, or be the pilot.
When I go to a restaurant, I want to be out on the patio tables. If the restaurant doesn't have patio seating, I won't eat there.

The list goes on. Also, these issues are phobias. Agora phobia, to the best of my knowledge.

OK, there ya go, now you know that I'm a fucking freak.

[Caravan Ray]

There is a "What Mental Disorder Do You Have" application on facebook. It diagnosed me as ADD, which I'm pretty sure isn't right, though I do think I have mild obsessive-compulsive disorder (I have a thing about repeatedly touching door-knobs and the oven switch etc before I leave the house. And I always check the iron is off - though no one in my house has actually turned the iron on since about 1998. And I like to straighten things)

[anti-m]

And Anti-M is right, psychiatrist over psychologist.

Well, not necessarily -- having a good relationship with a therapist you trust should be your primary objective. Just bear in mind that a psychologist wont be able to medicate you, should you need it. However, many good psychologists work in tandem with M.D.'s

[Billy's Little Trip]

There is a "What Mental Disorder Do You Have" application on facebook. It diagnosed me as ADD

You've got the ADD's virus? Did you catch that from unprotected equations. *budump bump*

And don't knock straightening things. Who the hell can go on living if there is a crooked picture on the wall? 8)

[Rabid Garfunkel]

Who the hell can go on living if there is a crooked picture on the wall? 8)

I live in an old (late 1800s) converted house. The spot of floor my desk is on is a bit tilted. There's a picture on the wall behind the computer screen. I had to crookedize the picture so it wouldn't look crooked in comparison to the monitor.

So, crooked is in the eye of the beholder, yo

[Billy's Little Trip]

Who the hell can go on living if there is a crooked picture on the wall? 8)

I live in an old (late 1800s) converted house. The spot of floor my desk is on is a bit tilted. There's a picture on the wall behind the computer screen. I had to crookedize the picture so it wouldn't look crooked in comparison to the monitor.

So, crooked is in the eye of the beholder, yo

Yes it is.
...how do you keep your pencils from rolling off the desk.

[Billy's Little Trip]

But I don't want to be addicted to pills anymore, and haven't been for 12 years now

I made this sound like I'm a recovered pill popper. I have no problem taking a pill ass needed. When I was younger, I took a lot of different recreational drugs all in the name of fun. The 12 year thing was when I decided to stop taking Valium, Xanax, or any other relaxant before a show.
So please keep the congratulatory applause to a minimum, I haven't done anything "clap" worthy, lol.

[Hoblit]

But I don't want to be addicted to pills anymore, and haven't been for 12 years now

I made this sound like I'm a recovered pill popper.

The first time I had heart palpitations I didn't know what they were. I thought I was having heart problems so I went to a doctor immediately. As it turns out it was the first time I found out I had anxiety issues as she related other symptoms I had been having to it. She tried to prescribe me Xanax right off the bat. For years I had been trying to get away from recreational pill popping and here she was PRESCRIBING me one of my favorites. I politely declined and just quit every drug that I was still *doing in order to get better. While it wasn't the perfect solution, it has helped.

*excepting caffeine, alcohol, and ibuprofen which I merely cut back on.

[anti-m]

I suffer from social anxieties....I've never had professional help, and I don't know if there is a permanent cure.

I've known a couple of people with severe social anxiety disorders* who got some relief from SSRIs. But it really sounds to me like you've already got a good handle on your sitch.

*That's severe. Not just "I'm shy" or "I get nervous giving speeches in front of people." More like "being in a group makes me feel like I'm going to vomit."

[Reist]

Not sure if this applies to the conversation, but why not?

I sometimes stutter when I speak in public. Today I was asking a question in class, and I got stuck on the word "reformation". I tried the sentence over again twice, but failed each time. I felt like an idiot.

[drë]

Not sure if this applies to the conversation, but why not?

I sometimes stutter when I speak in public. Today I was asking a question in class, and I got stuck on the word "reformation". I tried the sentence over again twice, but failed each time. I felt like an idiot.

dude, you have made my day. thanks.

[fluffy]

[Okay, sorry, I'm about to go all Lord of Oats on everyone here, but I have a lot to say.]

I stutter sometimes too, usually when I'm really anxious or when the thoughts are racing too fast for my tongue to keep up. That's one of those things that's pretty normal, though, and I've learned to calm down and slow down when I'm having trouble getting words out.

As far as -ologist vs. -iatrist, I prefer a psychologist as a first step specifically because I *don't* want pills to be the first response. This may just be prejudice, but my impression has always been that psychologists prefer to try to work things out therapeutically first before going with drugs, while psychiatrists prefer to just attack everything as a chemical imbalance. It does depend on the sort of problems you have though; the issues which have led me to therapy have generally had very specific situational issues, rather than being clinical depression.

The only time I've had any extended relationship with a psychologist, the first thing she had me do was to take the MMPI-2 (a test intended to determine whether it's a pathology vs. a psychology) and what it found was I was basically normal except with a high "schizotypical" (which is not the same thing as schizophrenia) and an extremely low self-esteem, which isn't something you take a pill for. If there had been a pathology she would have actually referred me to a psychiatrist, but instead she felt comfortable just moving forward with discussing the things I wanted to talk to her about, and after a year or so I didn't really need to talk to her anymore and so it tapered off on a positive note, and with me having a much better self-image and being better at forming those relationships that are such an important part of a healthy lifestyle.

That sort of counselor-patient relationship is still different than just "surrounding yourself with positive people" though. When I'm in a foul mood, the last thing I need is someone being chipper and positive; it's people like that who caused me to actually seek counseling.

Obviously I'm not saying that people should definitely go to a psychologist rather than a psychiatrist; just that's what was more suitable for me. For the sort of "real depression" that Erik was talking about, a psychiatrist is definitely where to go.

Ideally the first step would be to see someone who administers and properly interprets a test like the MMPI-2, but of course that's still more art than science as well, and it's definitely important for the person who interprets the results to have a thorough session before and after taking the test so as to disambiguate some of the more tenuous parts of it (for example, some of the questions have answers which are VERY dependent on context, which is not provided within the exam itself). This is, of course, again dependent on situation; if there's clearly a pathology at play then the first step should definitely be a psychiatrist.

But even a completely crippling oh-my-god-there's-no-serotonin-and-i-can't-get-up-in-the-morning depression can be a temporary, situational, non-clinical thing. I've been through that a few times, and that's usually a signal that there's something fundamentally wrong with my life that is causing me a hell of a lot of stress and making me mentally and physically spent, and it takes me a while to realize it but once I do I can focus on it and work out what I need to do to get out of that situation. (The last time was when I finally made up my mind to quit from Amazon.)

Incidentally, I have known a few people who have been clinically depressed and were aware of it, but only because it's been an extremely long-term ongoing thing for many many years (much like the impression I get from Niveous). One of my best friends while I was in grad school was like that, but her clinical depression stemmed from a constant physical stress (specifically fibromyalgia, which she could never quite manage well enough). Even with her various pain and depression medications she was still only barely in control and there were a lot of times she'd warn me to please not come by for a few weeks. It always pained me to not be able to help her in that state.

[okay, I think that's enough]

[anti-m]

Not sure if this applies to the conversation, but why not?

Well, because almost everyone suffers some shyness / public speaking fear / low level social anxiety. I'm not advocating universal SSRIs for the masses. (i.e. Prozac in the drinking water)

[anti-m]

As far as -ologist vs. -iatrist, I prefer a psychologist as a first step specifically because I *don't* want pills to be the first response.

That's exactly why I qualified Niv's response to my response. Many people don't need pills. Some do. A good therapist knows when to refer someone for meds. A good MD wont just throw pills at a problem (In spite of insurance pressures) -- and I personally feel any treatment plan should include psychotherapy or the like.

[Caravan Ray]

Not sure if this applies to the conversation, but why not?

I used to play football with a bloke with a quite severe stutter. But the weird bit was, at after-match functions when we all got really drunk, he could sing as well as anybody. I suggested to him that he should try to stay drunk as much as possible and just sing all the time (though mind you, I am not actually a qualified speech pathologist).

[fluffy]

*That's severe. Not just "I'm shy" or "I get nervous giving speeches in front of people." More like "being in a group makes me feel like I'm going to vomit."

Man, you should have seen me at SFLive Santa Cruz. The thought of being up on stage in front of so many people trying to perform (combined with a way-too-rich lunch) made me <em>actually</em> vomit, and I missed out on a lot of awesome stuff because I was stuck in the bathroom for an hour or so.

Fortunately, I eventually found a cure for that: karaoke. I'm much better performing now.

I've always gotten stage fright pretty bad but in Santa Cruz I was at a point where I was so self-conscious and wanted to be awesomer than I'd ever been that the pressure was just too much. Doing karaoke regularly helped a lot, because there wasn't any pressure to do well so I was able to practice my stage presence in a situation where it's okay to suck. So for the SF Tour I still sucked pretty bad but at least I was comfortable with myself! And if it weren't for that I would have absolutely never <a href="http://beesbuzz.biz/blog/e/2007/11/24-z ... .php">done this</a>.

One issue I haven't quite gotten over yet is agoraphobia, but it's easy enough to just avoid situations which cause it anyway (ultra-crowded concerts, CES, etc.), and also I've found that agoraphobia-inducing situations aren't so bad when I'm with someone I like to be around.

[Caravan Ray]

I'm not advocating universal SSRIs for the masses. (i.e. Prozac in the drinking water)

My dog is on Prozac. (I'm serious)

[Spud]

Oddly, I stutter in low-pressure situations. Like when it doesn't really matter. I can give public presentations, a lecture when I'm teaching, or anything else that's high-pressure, and no problem, no stuttering. I guess it's being totally off the cuff that gets to me. Maybe that's why I stay in character as much as possible.

[jack]

Man, you should have seen me at SFLive Santa Cruz. The thought of being up on stage in front of so many people trying to perform (combined with a way-too-rich lunch) made me <em>actually</em> vomit, and I missed out on a lot of awesome stuff because I was stuck in the bathroom for an hour or so.

i did. dude, you were green and hunched over behind the cayuga vault while the brody buds were hunched over with a different kind of green....

actually, you pulled yourself together pretty good, and honestly you jammed pretty nicely in the king arthur set. that was fun to play with you guys, especially the last song with spud.