2008 June 24 (Tuesday)

[Billy's Little Trip]

That bitch of an engraver was negligent and she knew it. She wasn't doing you any favours. Of course she had to replace the goods that she damaged. If she had given you the finger and told you to take the flawed merch and like it - then you could have sued her arse, run her out the engraving business, and have her charged with assault into the bargain.

Very much not true. I never signed any paperwork indicated liability in the event of engraver error. I was dumb enough to leave my possession with a total stranger without waiving my responsibility for it. And if she had said, "Sorry, you gotta bring me another watch," I'd have complained pretty loud, but suit would be ridiculous. You can't sue over a $75 watch. I mean, you can, but you'd lose more money in the process than you'd get back in the end. And in the end, even if I was dumb enough to bring her to court, I wouldn't have a leg to stand on. Plus, I'm leaving town in five days. I wouldn't even be present to press charges.

I think what Caravan Ray was doing is rhetorical sarcasm to segue into his incredibly parched punchline for the question of the day. Eh, I laughed.
But thank you for that fine explanation, Jon Eric.

[fluffy]

I just love how American society has conditioned us to assume our rights are based purely on whatever contracts have been signed.

[erik]

Anytime I take something I own and give it to a professional who is going to modify it in some way, I've never been asked to sign anything. People aren't permitted to deface your property just because you didn't sign something.

[Billy's Little Trip]

I just love how American society has conditioned us to assume our rights are based purely on whatever contracts have been signed.

Not for me. If you break a hand shake agreement with me, I'll egg your fucking house.

Officer Stedenko: We had a call from Mr Wilson and he said that you egged his house.

Me: I don't know nuttin' 'bout no stinkin' eggzz.

Officer Stedenko: Are you sure, punk!

Me: Yeah, I'm foe surzzle, Yo. You can't intimerlate me with your cool light, fuzz! You guys are always bringin' down the white man!

.....and scene.

[ujnhunter]

where can I buy a hat like that? I totally have to have one!

[fluffy]

I'm sure you can find one down at the YMCA.

[Billy's Little Trip]

where can I buy a hat like that? I totally have to have one!

Carrot Top.

[ujnhunter]

I'd REALLY like a miniature version if you know what I mean... I imagine it would drive the ladies Cah-Razy! then I could be all like...

[Billy's Little Trip]

If you look at that gif long enough, you WILL laugh.

[Lord of Oats]

Yeah, wouldn't anyone else here find it peculiar if someone in business said to you, "Would you please sign this form to ensure that we're liable for your goods?" Generally, a customer is asked to sign a waiver to prevent the provider of service from being liable. You're protected by the law because you didn't sign anything.

If there's an agreement between you and the business that they're going to enhance your merchandise, oral or written, and then they go and wreck it, that means there's a duty of care and that the duty has been breached. If that breach is a proximate cause and causes damage in fact (sounds like that applies here), you've got a tort on your hands.

There are some laws in place that automatically prevent liability for certain business. For instance, Florida has a statute preventing equine professionals from being held liable if you hurt yourself riding their horses. I know of no such automatic protection from liability in any jurisdiction that applies to a professional charged with the care of small items of personal property. It just seems silly, frankly. In this type of situation, it's assumed that liability applies to whoever was actually in possession of the goods when they got damaged UNLESS there was a prior agreement.

[jack]

when i take my truck to jiffy lube, they make me sign something before they change my oil.

[fluffy]

Have you actually read it? It's probably a waiver of liability and a work estimate.

[Lord of Oats]

I've always had to sign something before getting any automotive work done, even an oil change. I usually go to tire kingdom because they send me coupons in the mail. I don't believe their form waives liability. If they fucked up cars and didn't clean up after themselves, they'd have more bad press than they could handle, regardless of whose side the law is on. Besides, they're typically insured for that type of thing, and probably required to carry insurance in a lot of jurisdictions, like doctors or whatever. But all I really know that I sign a form authorizing work and guaranteeing that I'll pay for it when it's done. That just seems to be an industry standard practice - getting a guarantee up front and billing when work is completed to the customer's satisfaction.

[Billy's Little Trip]

My contracts are mostly just an agreement on the work we're doing. So everyone is in agreement of where my work stops and other contractors start.
I do have a few lines that release me from liability for unseen problems that may occur. But they are clearly stated and I go over them with the Homey before we ever step foot on the job. In fact, each of those lines require their initials to make sure they understand them. One of these lines is saying that in case we break ground while digging a pool and we hit rock, the dig portion will have to be rebid. It also states that at which time, the Homey has the right to terminate the entire contract if the cost is out of their budget.
Fortunately I've never run into this, but I've heard horror stories. A 3k dig can turn into a 20k dig. If we know going in, we can bid accordingly. Sometimes we have to do a hand dig because there is no way to get a bobcat into the backyard, but we can see this and bid accordingly. An average hand dig is around 10k. It's basically around 10 Hispanic fellers and wheelbarrows. I also subcontract all of the demo and excavation, so they carry their own liability, etc.

We're also not responsible for tearing up their lawn and irrigation during the construction process. So that is another liability release. But, we have a landscape company bid the repairs before we start, so they know how much it will cost, going in.

[jack]

one of the first jobs i ever had was hand digging swimming pools in virgina beach. worst fuckin job i've ever had, including bussing and washing dishes for the catering company to the airlines at norfolk international airport (which also sucked ass but still not as bad as the pool job).

yeah, i assume the paper at j lube is a work estimate. i do look at the price at the bottom before i sign it.

[Billy's Little Trip]

I can't even watch them hand dig a pool. It's painful to watch. But they get in a rhythm and kick ass. One of the hand digs I had a few months ago was in Laguna Beach. It's a 4 story home built on a hill where you enter the house from street level on the 3rd story. The only way from the street to the backyard are about 30 steps down about 3 ft wide. They rigged up this sweet pulley system to hoist the dirt to the top of the steps, pile it on the road and then a tractor scooped up the pile and put it in a dump truck. Each time the pile of dirt was pretty big, the dump truck was back for another load. It took 14 dump trucks to haul all the dirt away. I padded the excavation pretty good on this one, and ended up coming out almost 2k more than I expected on the plus side, so I gave each of the worker $150 cash as a bonus for finishing so quickly.

[Caravan Ray]

That bitch of an engraver was negligent and she knew it. She wasn't doing you any favours. Of course she had to replace the goods that she damaged. If she had given you the finger and told you to take the flawed merch and like it - then you could have sued her arse, run her out the engraving business, and have her charged with assault into the bargain.

Very much not true. I never signed any paperwork indicated liability in the event of engraver error. I was dumb enough to leave my possession with a total stranger without waiving my responsibility for it. And if she had said, "Sorry, you gotta bring me another watch," I'd have complained pretty loud, but suit would be ridiculous. You can't sue over a $75 watch. I mean, you can, but you'd lose more money in the process than you'd get back in the end. And in the end, even if I was dumb enough to bring her to court, I wouldn't have a leg to stand on. Plus, I'm leaving town in five days. I wouldn't even be present to press charges.

Of course, I don't know how things would work in your tin-pot little legal system - but in civilised countries there is legislation to protect the consumer. Any dodgy engraver stuffing me about would be hauled up before the Small Claims Tribunal quick-smart.

And negligence is negligence. Any waiver signed supposedly excusing someone from negligence is not worth the paper it is printed on.

[Caravan Ray]

My contracts are mostly just an agreement on the work we're doing. So everyone is in agreement of where my work stops and other contractors start.
I do have a few lines that release me from liability for unseen problems that may occur. But they are clearly stated and I go over them with the Homey before we ever step foot on the job. In fact, each of those lines require their initials to make sure they understand them. One of these lines is saying that in case we break ground while digging a pool and we hit rock, the dig portion will have to be rebid. It also states that at which time, the Homey has the right to terminate the entire contract if the cost is out of their budget.
Fortunately I've never run into this, but I've heard horror stories. A 3k dig can turn into a 20k dig. If we know going in, we can bid accordingly. Sometimes we have to do a hand dig because there is no way to get a bobcat into the backyard, but we can see this and bid accordingly. An average hand dig is around 10k. It's basically around 10 Hispanic fellers and wheelbarrows. I also subcontract all of the demo and excavation, so they carry their own liability, etc.

We're also not responsible for tearing up their lawn and irrigation during the construction process. So that is another liability release. But, we have a landscape company bid the repairs before we start, so they know how much it will cost, going in.

I assume that your contracts will also quote your professional liability insurance details - in the event that circumstances beyond the reasonable control of both yourself and your client end up in things turning pear-shaped.

Do you you locate services? (underground sewer, electricity, FOC, etc) - or do you place the responsibility on the owner to provide you with that information?

[Reist]

If you look at that gif long enough, you WILL laugh.

It only took me about 5 seconds to burst out laughing. Funny stuff (or maybe I'm just immature ... that's pretty likely too).

[Billy's Little Trip]

Do you you locate services? (underground sewer, electricity, FOC, etc) - or do you place the responsibility on the owner to provide you with that information?

We have an organization called "Dig Alert". They are wonderful. I'm not sure if they are City or State, but it's free for public safety. They locate gas, water and electric lines before excavation. They even accept liability if they mis marked a line that is hit. It happens.

In my opinion, when a homeowner hires a professional to do a specific type of work on their property, the company should know and deal with all issues of the process and the homeowner should just have to pay for said services with the comfort that they are in good hands.

I have never been sued in all my years of business, because I treat all of my customers the same way I like to be treated. I've been threatened to be sued, but all businesses get that because there are huge assholes in the world. But I just work my charm and professionalism and turn it around. There are huge sums of money being spent and emotional people can get very flustered. I've been there, so I can relate. I calm them down and give them my word that I will stay with them to completion. And I do!

[anti-m]

it's been awhile since i submitted anything here, but feel free to enjoy yourself some 5 year old brody.

i am still making music however. if you (or anyone else for that matter) is interested, i just did a cover of the new title track from Brad Sucks' soon to be released CD. Jefff and Anti-M are the singers, although I doubt they know this yet.

Hey, that's awesome, Jack! Bravo! Thank goodness I managed to randomly check this thread, or I'd never have found this!
(How did I ever keep up with the boards?? It seems to be impossible these days...)

You did a fantastic job on the instrumentation, and MAN I love Jefff's vocals.

Jefff and I are also gonna be on the "official" Brad Sucks version...due out...very...soon!

I'd never really heard Brad's stuff until this project. His stuff kicks ass!

--Em

[jack]

hey, glad you liked it em! you and jeff definitely had the best contributions of the 30 odd submissions.

BLT's sounded pretty good too, at least what i could hear of him through all the brad.