The Song Fight Bulletin Board

So it must be your J-Station. Line in/out level adjustment? Are you using a new mic cord?

Let's follow the line. On one end, we have the microphone. It doesn't have a volume control. It's plugged, via an LXR-to-1/4" Phone cable, into the "Instrument" port of the J-Station. The J-Station has a couple of different volume knobs. One is labelled "Level," and this one is supposed to change as you swap between presets. The other is labelled "Master Volume," and it's not designed to change unless you move the knob. Both knobs are turned all the way up.

The J-Station has stereo output. I've got a 1/4" cable plugged into the left output on the J-Station. This 1/4" cable connects, via a 1/4"-to-1/8" adapter, to the microphone jack on my computer. There's no input volume control (at least none that I've seen).

It's not the mic cable, and it's not the mic. It could be the J-Station, the output cable, the 1/4"-to-1/8" adapter, or my computer, but these are all ruled out because they record instruments just fine. They just can't handle microphone input.

Curiouser and curiouser.

this used to work? i thought there was some impedance mismatch thing, that you weren't supposed to do mic-level stuff into line-level ins and such. do i know what impedance is? no. i'm not an electrical engineer. but anyway it seems odd to plug the mic into what i assume is line level, and to plug a line level into a mic in...
-bill

I wonder if you blew the preamp on your sound card's mic input.

Generic wrote:Let's follow the line. On one end, we have the microphone. It doesn't have a volume control. It's plugged, via an LXR-to-1/4" Phone cable, into the "Instrument" port of the J-Station. The J-Station has a couple of different volume knobs. One is labelled "Level," and this one is supposed to change as you swap between presets. The other is labelled "Master Volume," and it's not designed to change unless you move the knob. Both knobs are turned all the way up.

The J-Station has stereo output. I've got a 1/4" cable plugged into the left output on the J-Station. This 1/4" cable connects, via a 1/4"-to-1/8" adapter, to the microphone jack on my computer. There's no input volume control (at least none that I've seen).

It's not the mic cable, and it's not the mic. It could be the J-Station, the output cable, the 1/4"-to-1/8" adapter, or my computer, but these are all ruled out because they record instruments just fine. They just can't handle microphone input.

Curiouser and curiouser.

Ok, I'm going to break down the things one at a time that caught my eye. I'm very good at trouble shooting in real life and I get paid very well for it. But bear with me (or bare with me if this sort of thing is your "thing") as I use the information that "you" are giving and my incredibly fast pick and peck typing skill.

You've made it clear that this is what you have and it has worked in the past, so I'll save you the "WTF are you doing it like that for" or "you need to buy this" jargon.

1. LXR-to-1/4" Phone cable = I'm pretty sure this is XLR. I know you got a new mic, but you still didn't answer if it's a new mic cord. So until I hear that it is, the cord goes on my list.

2. One is labeled "Level," and this one is supposed to change as you swap between presets = If your presets on your J-Station are like my past guitar FX stations, you set and save the volume level of the preset. My Peavey had many "factory" presets that were unchangeable other than with a foot pedal for volume or wah. On the other hand, my POD foot pedal over rides all volume out on the fly at any time, then when switched to a new pre set and then come back to the preset I used the vol peddle on, it's back to my preset, as it should be. I also have a line out level control on the back that needs a screwdriver to turn it, that is Independent from my face plate level and volume knobs. But I'm sure you would have discovered that by now.

3. I've got a 1/4" cable plugged into the left output on the J-Station = This is correct, because universally the left out is mono and that's how is on my POD. BUT, on my old Peavey unit, it did not do that until I depressed the stereo mono button. It would continue acting as a left channel which then went into my amp as mono, so I would twiddle knobs and cables until I would do the V8 smack to my head and remember the stereo/mono button.

4. via a 1/4"-to-1/8" adapter = The adapter is probably the one thing that popped out to me the most.

4a. There are several types of 1/4"-to-1/8" adapters. They are very compact and they're not like a 1/4" jack on your amp, J-station, etc. They make their connection with a internal snap ring in many cases and this usually is not serviceable. I once had an adapter go from working to not working in the same recording session.

4b. Are you using a mono guitar type 1/4" cord going from your J-Station to the 1/4"-to-1/8" adapter? I'm guessing you are because they are common and everyone seems to have extra cords laying around. I DO have stereo cables for our old PA system, but packed away.

4c. Are you using a headphone 1/4"-to-1/8" adapter? Headphone adapters are stereo. if we combine 4b and 4c, only half of your adapter is working and giving your computer line in jack half the signal. I'm not sure off the top of my head how this will react by the time it gets to your music program. But my knee jerk thought is that if you are recording on a mono track, your stereo line in from your computer is giving half a signal to your mono music track. Try setting the track on your music program to stereo. See if the signal responds to just the left or right. My PreSonus Firebox is left when plugged into mic 1 and right in mic 2. When I record mono, track 1 is mic IN1 and track 2 is mic IN2, etc. So it does send the signal to IN1 and IN2 appropriately. If you are always sending in to a left side of your computer line in, does it always just go to your IN1 on the buss?

4d. Now let's say that 4c is out of the equation. Let's say that your 1/4"-to-1/8" adapter is a mono adapter. You are plugging your your mono cable to your mono adapter to your stereo line in on the computer. Again, only half the signal is getting to your music track.

4e. I hate to even mention this because I'm sure it's the first thing you checked. Do you have your computer line in volume control turned all the way up, lol. Sorry, I had to ask. I know you said the instruments work fine, but instruments always have more than you need and dynamic mics are always the weakest signal in the mix.

To sum up #4.
method 1. For your chain to work, it seems that you need 2 mono 1/4" cords from your J-Station left and right. Then you need a 1/4' stereo Y to 1/8" stereo adapter to go to your computer line in.

methos 2. Change your computer line in to a mono signal and make sure all your cords and adapters are single/mono from the left out of your J-Station.
That's all I have on #4 for now.

5. It could be the J-Station, the output cable, the 1/4"-to-1/8" adapter, or my computer, "but these are all ruled out because they record instruments just fine". They just can't handle microphone input. = Actually, it does not rule anything out. Remember, all instruments that can be plugged directly in to an amp have some form of pre-amplification. Mics do too, but it's very low. I can't remember the exact millivolts off the top of my head.

OK, I'm getting interrupted too much now, between my dogs, phone calls, etc. I lost my train of thought. Plus I used up my coffee brains on number 4.

Jesus, Jon. You've been doing this for what, 6 years?

I can't resist butting in with this unhelpful info: Lexicon Alpha, $80, problems solved, recording quality greatly improved. Mic input minijack on soundcard = major janky, it's the hard truth.

Lunkhead wrote:I can't resist butting in with this unhelpful info: Lexicon Alpha, $80, problems solved, recording quality greatly improved. Mic input minijack on soundcard = major janky, it's the hard truth.

As a matter of fact...

I looked at the Lexicon Alpha, actually, almost a year ago, and was seriously tempted. The two reasons I didn't get it were 1.) I didn't have any money, and [more importantly] 2.) The guy at Guitar Center gave me the impression that it was USB only, and I really don't want to use something that has to interface with my computer, because of persistent CPU lag issues.

Of course, you're telling me that this very proclivity is holding back my audio. This dilemma will probably remain on hold until I can afford either a better sound card or a new computer.

Sober wrote:Jesus, Jon. You've been doing this for what, 6 years?

Yep, almost as long as you've been acting like a jackass on the Internet.

Okay Chris. You just made up for every annoying post, ever. Let's take it point by point.

Billy's Little Trip wrote: 1. LXR-to-1/4" Phone cable = I'm pretty sure this is XLR. I know you got a new mic, but you still didn't answer if it's a new mic cord. So until I hear that it is, the cord goes on my list.

Yes, the mic cord is about two weeks old. It was the first suspect, and also the cheapest to replace. Didn't help. Also, yes, I meant to say XLR. Oops.

2. One is labeled "Level," and this one is supposed to change as you swap between presets = If your presets on your J-Station are like my past guitar FX stations, you set and save the volume level of the preset. My Peavey had many "factory" presets that were unchangeable other than with a foot pedal for volume or wah. On the other hand, my POD foot pedal over rides all volume out on the fly at any time, then when switched to a new pre set and then come back to the preset I used the vol peddle on, it's back to my preset, as it should be. I also have a line out level control on the back that needs a screwdriver to turn it, that is Independent from my face plate level and volume knobs. But I'm sure you would have discovered that by now.

Yes. The "level" is automatically adjusted with the preset... unless you move the "level" knob, at which point it readjusts. I've made a habit of tweaking the knob a little bit any time I change anything, just to make sure.

3. I've got a 1/4" cable plugged into the left output on the J-Station = This is correct, because universally the left out is mono and that's how is on my POD. BUT, on my old Peavey unit, it did not do that until I depressed the stereo mono button. It would continue acting as a left channel which then went into my amp as mono, so I would twiddle knobs and cables until I would do the V8 smack to my head and remember the stereo/mono button.

That occurred to me as well, and it was driving me crazy trying to see if there was a button or switch I inadvertently flipped. The hundredth such search once again proves that there is no such switch. JB and Glenn both own J-Stations; could they confirm that there isn't some obvious setting I've been overlooking?

4. via a 1/4"-to-1/8" adapter = The adapter is probably the one thing that popped out to me the most.

4a. There are several types of 1/4"-to-1/8" adapters. They are very compact and they're not like a 1/4" jack on your amp, J-station, etc. They make their connection with a internal snap ring in many cases and this usually is not serviceable. I once had an adapter go from working to not working in the same recording session.

Yeah, this is one of those snap-in adapters. If it's the culprit, I'm going to tear off my ponytail. Still, my keyboards and guitars record just fine when direct-lined, so I'm not quite convinced.

4b. Are you using a mono guitar type 1/4" cord going from your J-Station to the 1/4"-to-1/8" adapter? I'm guessing you are because they are common and everyone seems to have extra cords laying around. I DO have stereo cables for our old PA system, but packed away.

It's actually a stereo phone cord (gold, two rings), but other than that, you've got the picture right.

4c. Are you using a headphone 1/4"-to-1/8" adapter? Headphone adapters are stereo. if we combine 4b and 4c, only half of your adapter is working and giving your computer line in jack half the signal. I'm not sure off the top of my head how this will react by the time it gets to your music program. But my knee jerk thought is that if you are recording on a mono track, your stereo line in from your computer is giving half a signal to your mono music track. Try setting the track on your music program to stereo. See if the signal responds to just the left or right. My PreSonus Firebox is left when plugged into mic 1 and right in mic 2. When I record mono, track 1 is mic IN1 and track 2 is mic IN2, etc. So it does send the signal to IN1 and IN2 appropriately. If you are always sending in to a left side of your computer line in, does it always just go to your IN1 on the buss?

What do you mean by "headphone adapter?" My headphone adapter, which I use for monitoring purposes, goes from 1/8" to 1/4", not the other way around. (The adapter is mono, and not stereo, if that's what you're asking.)

Regardless, you're also right. My computer only takes half the signal... unless I jiggle the cord. With the plug sticking almost halfway out, I can "trick" the computer into recording in stereo. Does that mean that's the problem?

4d. Now let's say that 4c is out of the equation. Let's say that your 1/4"-to-1/8" adapter is a mono adapter. You are plugging your your mono cable to your mono adapter to your stereo line in on the computer. Again, only half the signal is getting to your music track.

See above. You might have found it.

4e. I hate to even mention this because I'm sure it's the first thing you checked. Do you have your computer line in volume control turned all the way up, lol. Sorry, I had to ask. I know you said the instruments work fine, but instruments always have more than you need and dynamic mics are always the weakest signal in the mix.

Yep. Checked it embarassingly late in my self-diagnosis procedure, but when I finally got around to it, it was turned all the way up. I know, sometimes you gotta ask the stupid questions.

To sum up #4.
method 1. For your chain to work, it seems that you need 2 mono 1/4" cords from your J-Station left and right. Then you need a 1/4' stereo Y to 1/8" stereo adapter to go to your computer line in.

Shoot. The only Y-cable I have is one out, two in. This sounds like it might look silly, but it might work.

methos 2. Change your computer line in to a mono signal and make sure all your cords and adapters are single/mono from the left out of your J-Station.
That's all I have on #4 for now.

Hmm.... I don't know if I can set my computer's line-in to mono. I'll try it next time I boot to Windows, though.

5. It could be the J-Station, the output cable, the 1/4"-to-1/8" adapter, or my computer, "but these are all ruled out because they record instruments just fine". They just can't handle microphone input. = Actually, it does not rule anything out. Remember, all instruments that can be plugged directly in to an amp have some form of pre-amplification. Mics do too, but it's very low. I can't remember the exact millivolts off the top of my head.

You're scaring me, dude.


Thanks for the detailed response. Maybe I'll actually get to the bottom of this problem now.

I noticed I worded something confusing about "every instrument that you can plug in has some form of pre amp." A magnetic coil isn't a "pre amp", but does emit millivolts. Although I have had active pickups that put out more than 1V.

Also, I don't know if it's even possible to change your computer line in to mono, I was just saying that's what you'd have to do. My knowledge ends at the computer, lol. But I'm learning.

OK, now you said, "It's actually a stereo phone cord (gold, two rings), but other than that, you've got the picture right." So this is the cord coming out of the J-Station to the 1/4" to 1/8" adapter? And the adapter is mono? Going into a stereo line in jack on your computer?
I don't like the sound of this one bit, but you use the same configuration for your keyboards, etc, and it works fine. I know you said you can pull it out half way with success (been there done that). But thinking of the impedance difference from a microphone and a guitar pickup makes me think that you WILL have differences in reactions from the two.

Billy's Little Trip wrote: OK, now you said, "It's actually a stereo phone cord (gold, two rings), but other than that, you've got the picture right." So this is the cord coming out of the J-Station to the 1/4" to 1/8" adapter?

Yes.

Generic wrote:

Billy's Little Trip wrote: OK, now you said, "It's actually a stereo phone cord (gold, two rings), but other than that, you've got the picture right." So this is the cord coming out of the J-Station to the 1/4" to 1/8" adapter?

Yes.

In this case, I'd say use a stereo 1/4" to 1/8" adapter. That way it's taking the same path all the way from the J-Station to your computer. Your computer sound card is giving your music program what it is asking for, then your music program can sort it out, which it will. IN-1 on the buss.

Okay, got a stereo adapter. Didn't work.

I've now put down $138 on getting this to work. At least it was all on stuff I wanted/needed anyway.

I guess the bigger mystery is why my setup ever worked in the first place, but it hasn't seriously changed since 2004, and you can hear this same setup working as recently as "Walking the Border."

Oh well. It's annoying, but I've been working around it.

At least you have a new sm58.

Ken posted that unit from MF the other day for 49 bux.
mic>49 buck unit>computer

Sorry, had to say it.

Okay, I fixed it.

BLT, remember when you asked me a question that you thought was so trivial and elementary that it hardly bore asking, but you had to make sure?

Yeah.

I guess last time I raised the Windows Recording Mixer volume threshold, it didn't take or something.

Anyway.

When I got my new mic, I broke it in with a song that was six months in the making. So now that I have my setup working like old times again, I decided to celebrate by recording a song that was almost six years in the making.

Thanks for the help, Chris.

Cool! I feel the same as Navin R. Johnson did the day the new phone book came out with his name in it.

Generic wrote:Yep, almost as long as you've been acting like a jackass on the Internet.

You've spent $138 getting this still-inferior setup working again. For the same money, you could be recording with a cheap condenser through a usb interface with real mic preamps. Instead, you're still recording into a dynamic mic through a guitar pedal into a fucking soundblaster.

I don't act like a jackass, I am an asshole. But, I am also right in this particular case. As long as you continue to screw around with your current setup in lieu of scrapping it entirely, you will be flushing money down the toilet and your recordings will never progress in quality.

I'm not saying this shit to be an asshole, I'm saying it because I think you're a cool dude and it irks me to see people's music held back because of their lame purchasing habits.

Sober wrote: You've spent $138 getting this still-inferior setup working again. For the same money, you could be recording with a cheap condenser through a usb interface with real mic preamps. Instead, you're still recording into a dynamic mic through a guitar pedal into a fucking soundblaster.

I don't act like a jackass, I am an asshole. But, I am also right in this particular case. As long as you continue to screw around with your current setup in lieu of scrapping it entirely, you will be flushing money down the toilet and your recordings will never progress in quality.

While I disagree that an investment in an SM58 is "flushing money down the toilet", I agree that your next move should be a USB or firewire A/D box with a couple of decent preamps. The sound card is the weakest link in your current signal chain.

Sober wrote: You've spent $138 getting this still-inferior setup working again. For the same money, you could be recording with a cheap condenser through a usb interface with real mic preamps. Instead, you're still recording into a dynamic mic through a guitar pedal into a fucking soundblaster.

I don't act like a jackass, I am an asshole. But, I am also right in this particular case. As long as you continue to screw around with your current setup in lieu of scrapping it entirely, you will be flushing money down the toilet and your recordings will never progress in quality.

About three-quarters of that money was for an SM58. Well that's money down the toilet, right? If I do actually get a USB interface, I'm still going to plug my microphone into it using the same XLR cord that I bought while trying to fix this setup.

At this point, believe it or not, I'm relatively content with my audio fidelity. Listen to the cover I just recorded last night and explain to me the ways it would have sounded different if I'd run the input through USB instead of microphone-in.

If, instead of buying replacement parts for my existing setup, I had taken your advice (which you didn't even bother to give until after I'd solved my own problem), I'd be using a USB audio interface to process the input from this microphone. So yeah. Totally wasted my money, didn't I?

One final side note: why do you and Ken both think that this is a guitar pedal?

It doesn't have a button you click with your foot, so it's not a "pedal", but it really is just a fancy guitar pedal. See it on Harmony Central listed under "Effects", for example.

The basic issue as I see it is that you are using the J-Station in a way it was not designed to be used, and that is inherently going to be problematic. It doesn't have XLR inputs, it doesn't have a mic preamp, it doesn't have phantom power. All signs point to "don't plug your microphone into it and expect it to work great". I can plug a mic into my guitar amp and sing through it but that doesn't make it a PA, it's still a guitar amp. Likewise I can pound a screw into wood with a hammer but I'm better off using a drill. Anyway, if you use tools that are designed to do the things you're trying to do with them, you will probably have a much easier time recording music and you will wind up with better sounding results. Just think, your signal chain for vocals could be as simple as: mic->XLR cable->USB audio interface->USB cable->PC.

Lunkhead wrote:I can pound a screw into wood with a hammer but I'm better off using a drill.

Why would you drill a hole in a screw if you want to drive it into wood? Ha, I keeed, I keeed.

irwin wrote:While I disagree that an investment in an SM58 is "flushing money down the toilet", I agree that your next move should be a USB or firewire A/D box with a couple of decent preamps. The sound card is the weakest link in your current signal chain.

Generic wrote:About three-quarters of that money was for an SM58. Well that's money down the toilet, right?

Not usually one to nitpick, but I want to make an important point, and it's about purchasing priorities.

How often do you play live shows? If your answer is 'less than once per week' then your $60-$99 spent on an SM58 IS A WASTE compared to the immediate benefit of spending the same money on a cheap condenser. The only reason to have a dynamic mic in your home studio is if you are recording very loud sources like drums, guitar amps, and maybe horns (all of which generally call for a 57). The only reason to sing into a dynamic mic is if you're playing live, or perhaps certain kinds of hardcore/screamo music.

If I do actually get a USB interface, I'm still going to plug my microphone into it using the same XLR cord that I bought while trying to fix this setup.

Ok, I never faulted you for buying a cable.

At this point, believe it or not, I'm relatively content with my audio fidelity. Listen to the cover I just recorded last night and explain to me the ways it would have sounded different if I'd run the input through USB instead of microphone-in.

For starters, with the USB Input alone, you'd have zero bus noise, which is very audible around 2:15, and comically overwhelming at the end. With USB + condenser, the acoustic guitar and the vocal would be 100% clearer and easier to mix. Also, please bring the kick down, it's riding the threshold the whole way through (you mixing on headphones?).

If, instead of buying replacement parts for my existing setup, I had taken your advice (which you didn't even bother to give until after I'd solved my own problem), I'd be using a USB audio interface to process the input from this microphone. So yeah. Totally wasted my money, didn't I?

I guess I wasn't clear in my post. For $140, you could have a USB interface AND a cheap condenser. Having BOTH of these is absolutely key, and should be regarded as a mandatory starting point for anyone wanting to record at home. Sorry I haven't been a daily Songfight lurker for a good year now, but I gave advice when I saw the opportunity.

One final side note: why do you and Ken both think that this is a guitar pedal?

Because it's standard equipment for people who noodle around with guitar. The fact that it's not in stomp-pedal form actually makes it even less useful, but I guess Ken and I are dumb.

But I will say that both of us are open to constructive criticism and engaging in healthy recording technique debate without being dogmatic. You seem very defensive in your posts, and I figured you'd been around Songfight to appreciate the immeasurable value a few good verbal lashings can provide. 5 years ago, my entries were embarrassing garbage. I gladly offer a huge portion of credit for my skills as they are today to Blue for relentlessly crushing me week after week. He was brutal, but he was honest, objective and right.

I'll wrap this too-long post by returning to purchasing priorities. First, you need to figure out exactly what you want to do. Set a long-term goal for what kind of quality/feel/mojo you'd like to achieve. Find out what gear/skills you'll need, then budget. THEN, plan out secondary and immediate goals. I'm sure your SM58 will be handy one day - hell, I've used mine at least twice since I got my first condenser - but it didn't really offer any immediate benefit to your home studio, so I'd call it wasteful, and a hindrance to your improvement in the short term.