New Sidefight Brainstorming (Inspired By Nur Ein)

[Teplin]

Good ideas flying around here. My 2 cents so far:

There definitely seem to be 2 different sidefights emerging, so I'll address them separately.

The Tournament: I'd participate in something like this for sure. I think it'd be really easy to set this up, too. Everyone who wants to participate puts their name on the list at the start of it. I really like the idea of connecting it to regular songfight instead of competing with it. Each new fight, two participants are chosen at random to go head to head, Nur Ein finale style. The songs are voted on by fellow participants, and the winner moves on to the next round. I like it this way, rather than everyone going head to head at once, because it's a great slow burner. It'd take awhile to wrap up, but it shouldn't be tiring because it's only intense for one pair of fighters on any given week. Meanwhile, everyone else gets the fun of discussing the songs and rooting for their favorites. The tournament ends when only one is left. The winner is crowned tournament champion and gets... something. Maybe a special forum title, or an avatar that gets passed around like a trophy form tournament to tournament.

The Other Sidefight:

Again, I like the idea of this being a sort of add-on to regular songfight. But I think the judging/voting should be done apart from the songfight voting, to be fair to the people who want to participate in songfight but aren't in the sidefight. Or rotate how it's done, as Jon suggested.

I don't think trying to replicate the intensity of Nur Ein is the way to go here. The bulk of that intensity comes from the tighter-than-usual time limit, and the multiple eliminations each week. Take either of those elements away, and it won't be as intense. Keep both of those elements in, well, you basically have Nur Ein so you might as well just do that again.

The intensity isn't required for it to be fun and engaging, though. Nur Ein is kind of like Risk or Monopoly, it gets a bit less fun for the group as a whole as it goes on, just because it's not as much fun to sit on the sidelines when you get knocked out. (Note: that's not a criticism of Nur Ein... it trades in some it it's fun for more intensity, and intensity is what Nur Ein is all about). That's why I think a points-based game would be so cool. People may be down, but they're not out, and they have even more incentive to step up their game. Plus, without the high level of intensity, it won't be as exhausting as Nur Ein, so I don't see any need to keep it very short. I see it being a more casual competition, something to add a little bit of spice to participating in regular Songfight, without the pressure of it being mandatory. Participants don't have to do the challenges, or even enter that week's fight. All that's at stake is falling a bit behind.

I definitely think there need to be challenges, that's one of the most fun and challenging things about Nur Ein. But yeah, maybe make them optional, and worth extra points. In fact, let there be several different optional challenges for each fight. For example:

Challenge 1: Don't use any guitars in your song - worth 5 points
Challenge 2: Guest vocalist singing falsetto - worth 3 points
Challenge 3: Use the words "Subterranean" and "Expressway" in your lyrics - 1 point each

It'll be difficult to meet all of that fight's challenges, but whoever does will rake in the points. It also might be a bit of a gamble because the more challenges you meet, the harder it is to do it well, which might end up costing you points with the judges. Ooh strategy!

Finally, why not simplify the judging? Have each judge (be it peers or a panel) rank just their top 5. Their top pick gets 5 points, their second pick gets 4 points, their third gets 3, etc. If you aren't on any of the judges top 5 lists, you don't get any points from the judging. This way, judges don't spend as much time ranking every single participant, and it keeps the number of points any given participant can get in a week somewhat under control.

Hmm, I think that's all I've got for now. Lets keep brainstorming this!

[Teplin]

Oops

[JonPorobil]

The Other Sidefight:

Again, I like the idea of this being a sort of add-on to regular songfight. But I think the judging/voting should be done apart from the songfight voting, to be fair to the people who want to participate in songfight but aren't in the sidefight. Or rotate how it's done, as Jon suggested.

I don't think trying to replicate the intensity of Nur Ein is the way to go here. The bulk of that intensity comes from the tighter-than-usual time limit, and the multiple eliminations each week. Take either of those elements away, and it won't be as intense. Keep both of those elements in, well, you basically have Nur Ein so you might as well just do that again.

The intensity isn't required for it to be fun and engaging, though. Nur Ein is kind of like Risk or Monopoly, it gets a bit less fun for the group as a whole as it goes on, just because it's not as much fun to sit on the sidelines when you get knocked out. That's why I think a points-based game would be so cool. People may be down, but they're not out, and they have even more incentive to step up their game. Plus, without the high level of intensity, it won't be as exhausting as Nur Ein, so I don't see any need to keep it very short. I see it being a more casual competition, something to add a little bit of spice to participating in regular Songfight, without the pressure of it being mandatory. Participants don't have to do the challenges, or even enter that week's fight. All that's at stake is falling a bit behind.

I definitely think there need to be challenges, that's one of the most fun and challenging things about Nur Ein. But yeah, maybe make them optional, and worth extra points. In fact, let there be several different optional challenges for each fight. For example:

Challenge 1: Don't use any guitars in your song - worth 5 points
Challenge 2: Guest vocalist singing falsetto - worth 3 points
Challenge 3: Use the words "Subterranean" and "Expressway" in your lyrics - 1 point each

It'll be difficult to meet all of that fight's challenges, but whoever does will rake in the points. It also might be a bit of a gamble because the more challenges you meet, the harder it is to do it well, which might end up costing you points with the judges. Ooh strategy!

Finally, why not simplify the judging? Have each judge (be it peers or a panel) rank just their top 5. Their top pick gets 5 points, their second pick gets 4 points, their third gets 3, etc. If you aren't on any of the judges top 5 lists, you don't get any points from the judging. This way, judges don't spend as much time ranking every single participant, and it keeps the number of points any given participant can get in a week somewhat under control.

Hmm, I think that's all I've got for now. Lets keep brainstorming this!

These are all really good ideas, Tep. I think perhaps instead of setting the judging at "Top 5" it should probably be something like the top 50% (if there's 25 participants, it wouldn't be very fair to only give points to the top five. Plus, with your bonus points challenges, it seems a bit too easy for someone who didn't place at all to outscore the 1st-place song).

You're also right, though, in that the intensity isn't entirely necessary. If someone's not that into it, they just won't do well.

Any other thoughts?

[Teplin]

These are all really good ideas, Tep. I think perhaps instead of setting the judging at "Top 5" it should probably be something like the top 50% (if there's 25 participants, it wouldn't be very fair to only give points to the top five. Plus, with your bonus points challenges, it seems a bit too easy for someone who didn't place at all to outscore the 1st-place song).

In the example above, it's possible to get a total of 10 points from the challenges alone. You only need 2 judges to rank you number 1 on their lists to get 10 points, and that's without doing any of the challenges. So, it sorta depends on how many judges there are. If all the other participants are judging, those points will add up quickly. If it's a small panel of judges, maybe top 10 would be more fair. It'd be nice to get a balance that,yes, favors the judging, but also doesn't render the challenge points meaningless.

[glennny]

I never liked how Nur Ein took away from the regular fight. Perhaps part of the new sidefight could be doing the regular fight, but then the judging panel would add a non-optional challenge and judge as a panel rather than the regular SF popular vote.

I think 3 judges is way too few, I actually think 5 judges is too few. I'd hope for 7, although the logistics are all the more complicated.

The charm of the point system is you can miss a week and still get back in. The other charm is there are more awesome songs created.

However there will still be King-making. I would guess Paco would clean up in such an endurance run, where he'd never miss an entry and always score fairly well.

It'd be cool to come up with a risk or difficulty factor to songs, like in diving or basketball (a 3 pointer is more difficult and riskier than a foul shot) so the contestant could score a solid 3:15 pop song, or crash and burn in their 12minute rock-suite.

Nur Ein is pretty awesome the way it is, I appreciate it more and more the more we try and create an alternative.

[JonPorobil]

I've been talking it through with other people on IRC, and the idea is that we want to capture the energy and inspiration of the competitive sidefight, but channeling that energy into Songfight proper, rather than diverting it away from the main event. With that in mind, we've come to the following conclusions.

1.) We're going to wait until people's Nur Ein fatigue wears off. I'm still thinking October. If we get the details settled sooner, maybe as early as Labor Day.
2.) The contest will be shorter than Nur Ein. Not sure how much shorter, but it will be shorter.
3.) The contest (at least, the one I'm volunteering to run) will use Songfight titles and deadlines.
4.) There will be different scoring standards each round. Point values and such will vary depending on how many participants we have.
5.) There will be challenges, but they will be optional. Multiple challenges per week, each one worth a certain number of points.
6.) Bonus points may be awarded for reviews.

Right now, it's all very preliminary, but who would be interested in competing in such a sidefight?

[Caravan Ray]

Good ideas flying around here. My 2 cents so far:

There definitely seem to be 2 different sidefights emerging, so I'll address them separately.

The Tournament: I'd participate in something like this for sure. I think it'd be really easy to set this up, too. Everyone who wants to participate puts their name on the list at the start of it. I really like the idea of connecting it to regular songfight instead of competing with it. Each new fight, two participants are chosen at random to go head to head, Nur Ein finale style. The songs are voted on by fellow participants, and the winner moves on to the next round. I like it this way, rather than everyone going head to head at once, because it's a great slow burner. It'd take awhile to wrap up, but it shouldn't be tiring because it's only intense for one pair of fighters on any given week. Meanwhile, everyone else gets the fun of discussing the songs and rooting for their favorites. The tournament ends when only one is left. The winner is crowned tournament champion and gets... something. Maybe a special forum title, or an avatar that gets passed around like a trophy form tournament to tournament.

Yep, that’s about how I envisioned it.

Though maybe it shouldn’t be a tournament as such – but a never ending round of challenges. Like the Ranfurly Shield.

The Ranfurly Shield is a rugby trophy here in NZ that I really like the idea of. It is incorporated into the regular domestic rugby competition. It is basically a perpetual trophy than is held and defended by a team. If Auckland holds the Shield – a certain number of home games that Auckland plays each year are challenge matches in defence of the shield. If Taranaki beats Auckland in Auckland – Taranaki takes the Ranfurly home with them, and keeps it until someone comes and takes it off them. Traditionally, strong sides like Auckland and Canterbury hold on to the Shield for years, occasionally trading it between each other. Every now and then, a minnow grabs it – which makes it exciting for a few challenges – until Auckland or Canterbury come and take it back again. (The Taranaki Bulls last held the Shield, for 2 matches, back in about 1996. Prior to that, they hadn’t had it since the 1960s). Wellington is the current holder, they took it off Auckland at the end of last year – I don’t think they have faced any challenges yet.

How does this apply to Songfight? I dunno. I just like the idea of a perpetual trophy that is owned 80% of the time by someone like Melvin – until the day he slips up and Rone takes it off him. Then it bounces around a few people for a few months – until it is Melvin’s turn to challenge again and he wins it back.

[Caravan Ray]

continued from above

Ok – here’s how the Rivendale Perpetual Trophy could work (we can work on the name…)

1. It’s my idea – so it’s my trophy. I am the initial holder
2. I must enter next weeks fight – or I lose the trophy (I like the idea of a special avatar as the Trophy)
3. Anyone wanting to challenge, puts their name on the Challenger thread. A roster is drawn up randomly. Person at the top of the list is the official challenger.
4. Let’s say Frankie Big Face is at the top of the Challenger list. I do an entry for the regular Songfight. So does Frankie.
5. Separate from the voting – a Panel of Eminent Songfighters (3? 5? 7? people, can be different each week) – picks the ‘best’ song out of me and FBF.
6. I wipe the floor with him. He goes back to the bottom of the challenger list. I do another song, ready for the next challenge.
7. Next week – Primitive Screwheads, featuring Neil Thrun and the Doom Fairies take it off me. I go to the bottom of the challenger list. (Challengers are encouraged to band together to try to beat the Trophy holder)
8. Anyone can enter at any time – they just get their name put at the bottom of the Challenger list and wait their turn.
9. If Challenger fails to enter – he goes to the bottom of the list. Maybe there could be some sort of roll call thing – so the list doesn’t get full of people who then disappear.
10. If both the Trophy holder and the Challenger fail to enter – Trophy holder retains the Trophy
11. Maybe the Trophy holder shouldn’t have to enter every week, as long as he accepted challenges twice a moth or something. That would let people hold the trophy for longer and build up tension.

I suppose this is not really a sidefight and not what Lunkhead was suggesting – but is does encourage people back to the fights proper, and encourage someone on a roll to keep going.

[JonPorobil]

continued from above

Ok – here’s how the Rivendale Perpetual Trophy could work (we can work on the name…)

1. It’s my idea – so it’s my trophy. I am the initial holder
2. I must enter next weeks fight – or I lose the trophy (I like the idea of a special avatar as the Trophy)
3. Anyone wanting to challenge, puts their name on the Challenger thread. A roster is drawn up randomly. Person at the top of the list is the official challenger.
4. Let’s say Frankie Big Face is at the top of the Challenger list. I do an entry for the regular Songfight. So does Frankie.
5. Separate from the voting – a Panel of Eminent Songfighters (3? 5? 7? people, can be different each week) – picks the ‘best’ song out of me and FBF.
6. I wipe the floor with him. He goes back to the bottom of the challenger list. I do another song, ready for the next challenge.
7. Next week – Primitive Screwheads, featuring Neil Thrun and the Doom Fairies take it off me. I go to the bottom of the challenger list. (Challengers are encouraged to band together to try to beat the Trophy holder)
8. Anyone can enter at any time – they just get their name put at the bottom of the Challenger list and wait their turn.
9. If Challenger fails to enter – he goes to the bottom of the list. Maybe there could be some sort of roll call thing – so the list doesn’t get full of people who then disappear.
10. If both the Trophy holder and the Challenger fail to enter – Trophy holder retains the Trophy
11. Maybe the Trophy holder shouldn’t have to enter every week, as long as he accepted challenges twice a moth or something. That would let people hold the trophy for longer and build up tension.

I suppose this is not really a sidefight and not what Lunkhead was suggesting – but is does encourage people back to the fights proper, and encourage someone on a roll to keep going.

I actually like this idea a lot.

Instead of an odd number of prominent songfighters, why not make it the subject of a board poll?

[frankie big face]

4. Let’s say Frankie Big Face is at the top of the Challenger list. I do an entry for the regular Songfight. So does Frankie.
6. I wipe the floor with him.

I am already seeing serious flaws in this plan.

[Caravan Ray]

I actually like this idea a lot.

Instead of an odd number of prominent songfighters, why not make it the subject of a board poll?

Maybe. So long as the popular vote didn't unfairly favour the underdog.

You know that if say, Rone was challenging Frankie Big Face - there is bound to be at least one immature voter who may not bother even listening to the songs and cast a vote simply for it's amusement value. That's I went for the incorruptable panel of wise old sages.

Besides - there already will be a popular vote as part of the official voting. And if the judges vote does not reflect the popular vote - all sorts of controversy and judge abuse will ensue! Fun!!

[Caravan Ray]

4. Let’s say Frankie Big Face is at the top of the Challenger list. I do an entry for the regular Songfight. So does Frankie.
6. I wipe the floor with him.

I am already seeing serious flaws in this plan.

Hey - it's my hypothetical, let me run it how I please!

[JonPorobil]

That said, why not just use number of votes as the deciding factor?

[glennny]

I think the judging panel is needed. My main motivation for Nur Ein anyway was the immunity from Friend Flooding or other voting problems.

That said, perhaps you need a rotating judge panel, something like the lowest scorers are required to judge the next round. probably not a full replacement. But more like on a panel of 5, 3 remain, the 2 lowest scorers join the panel. 2 leave and join the fight. Lowest ends up judging for only 3 rounds in a row. 2nd lowest has to judge for 2 rounds.

judges Glen, Mel, Friz, Furry, Niv judge.
Ken scores lowest and Lunk scores 2nd lowest
next round Glen, Mel, Friz, Ken and Lunk judge
Paco lowest and BLT score 2nd lowest
next round Friz, Ken, Lunk, Paco, and BLT judge
Frankie lowest and Swilington score 2nd lowest
next round Ken, Paco, BLT, Frankie, Swilington judge
CRay scores lowest, JB scores 2nd lowest
next round Paco, Frankie, Swilington, Cray, and JB judge

etc.

Also I see no need not to have everyone going for the title every round. I see the reasoning in Rugby but not this contest where multiple contestants are possible.

[Teplin]

That said, why not just use number of votes as the deciding factor?

Yeah, if this was, as CR suggests, going to be a perpetual thing, it'd be easier on everyone involved to use the voting system, rather that have to round up a set of judges each and every fight. Then everything becomes pretty easy, and all you really need is a special avatar, which I'd be more than happy to provide.

[Caravan Ray]

That said, why not just use number of votes as the deciding factor?

Yeah, if this was, as CR suggests, going to be a perpetual thing, it'd be easier on everyone involved to use the voting system, rather that have to round up a set of judges each and every fight. Then everything becomes pretty easy, and all you really need is a special avatar, which I'd be more than happy to provide.

yes - i agree - it would be preferable. I just didn't want the "real" fight voting being corrupted, by excessive interest in just 2 songs, or possibly the "underdog factor". That was the reason for removing it from the fight votes.

[Caravan Ray]

Also I see no need not to have everyone going for the title every round. I see the reasoning in Rugby but not this contest where multiple contestants are possible.

Then it is just Songfight! I guess - where the best song wins (though you are proposing a panel, ratther than voting - so it is a bit different).

I suppose I see this as a little prod for the casual, rather than regular Songfighter - one of which I have become this year. If I am on the Challenger list, down to do a Challenge in 2 weeks time, I can plan my timetable, get psyched up and do a song. If I win - I will feel obliged to do another. maybe another after that. Rather than "not getting around to it" again, as I do most of the time now.

[Lunkhead]

Just to clarify, I don't think I actually suggested anything other than doing Nur Ein twice a year. I just set up the thread for the discussion and repeated some ideas that other folks posted in the NEIV - Final Round thread, so credit goes to the authors I was quoting (like Generic, etc.).

I like the ideas that are ways of augmenting Song Fight! and drawing more people into the official fights (even though that's not like Nur Ein). I particularly like Caravan Ray's title/trophy idea, and the cool thing about it is that it's something that could start right away. We'd just need one ambitious volunteer to start a thread for it. That admin could put the rules in the first post, the update that first post with the current title holder, the current list of challengers, and possibly the current list of judges if there are judges. I think going by the actual Song Fight! votes would be a lot simpler than having judges, though obviously there are the friend flooding and tampering aspects to consider. A panel of judges, though, would have its own set of possible problems. Perhaps the admin could have a secret panel of judges every fight which is unmasked after they've done their judging, to try to diminish bribery/corruption/etc. That would require some significant effort to coordinate, though. And, if the admin gets sick of it, someone could start up a new thread and be the new admin for a new title that was operated in a similar manner.

Anyway, I'm enjoying everyones' brainstorming.

[Rabid Garfunkel]

This is starting to feel like a rap battle site

And in that vein, another time wasting suggestion...

1) Start thread asking for participants
2) When the next Songfight title is announced, a shadowy figure sends a pm to the participants, see example:

p++, you're going head to head with Neil Thrun this fight. Whoever gets the most votes moves to the next stage on the ladder.

3) Follow the title & deadline set by the Fightmasters, and submit the song to the fight proper.
4) Don't tell anyone who your combatant is until after the deadline.
5) Apply results of each M-y-M fight to the tournament-style bracket system mentioned previously.
6) PROFIT!

Or something...

[rone rivendale]

You know that if say, Rone was challenging Frankie Big Face - there is bound to be at least one immature voter who may not bother even listening to the songs and cast a vote simply for it's amusement value. That's I went for the incorruptable panel of wise old sages.

So basically I shouldn't bother keeping up on this since it's already been decided I can not win unless it's joke votes.

See ya.

[Caravan Ray]

Sorry Rone, but in the scenario presented we had FBF, who has just finished doing 8 very carefully written and performed songs in a row to win Nur Ein, against someone who recently told us:

Sounds good, my average time to make a song is about an hour or two anyway.

Under the circumstances there, in the absence of any commitment to a bit more effort - yes, joke votes are your best option.

[Billy's Little Trip]

Crap, I saw my name up tharr. Iz I posta be payin' attentions? Is this the instructions? Cliff notes, please.

...I'd like to change my earlier post. Could one of the fine college students
make a youtube video of what I'm supposed do?