The Song Fight Bulletin Board

jb wrote:You can now attach mp3s and other sound file types up to 10Mb to forum posts.
JB

Man, what a nice guy. See, I wouldn't have done that. But then, it's not MY server.

Generic wrote:

Billy's Little Trip wrote:By the way, this is an EZdrummer tutorial that should be watched by anyone that records they're music solo and does not play drums. It's a long 17 minute vid, but so worth the watch. http://www.toontrack.com/tv.asp?channel ... &item=40#2

Phil Wages, you NEED this program, sir.

Well, there goes my Holiday budget.

But the nice thing, you can start with the starter set and then add groups to your library later.

also, I just noticed that I spelled their as they're. Heh, I'm an idiot.

Oooh, I see EZDrummer works with Reaper. (Check under "Compatibility" for EZDrummer.)

Well, now I need to decide whether I'm getting myself some proper mics or a bad-ass drum program for Christmas. Decisions, decisions.

What's up with this? (cf. the Features Comparison section here)

Also, they both come with this. All I know about it is that I've seen it on display at Best Buy. Anyone familiar with this product, or its manufacturer Akai?

Wow, it comes with the drum pad free? Those things are a couple hundred by them self. Not that I'd use it, so it would just sit in it's box. But some people prefer using a pad to do their drums because it the same as programming a drum machine. That's how I used to do it 20 years ago, but now I like to use my mouse on a virtual kit. Less crap on my desk, lol.

The day after I bought EZDrummer, the car didn't start. That was $1700 in service fees. My wife's iMac power supply died after 5 years...$180. We got a VISA bill for $7000 and I had two doctor appointments that are out of network and cost another $350.

But yeah, EZDrummer is awesome! (at any price)

Generic wrote:What's up with this? (cf. the Features Comparison section here)

Also, they both come with this. All I know about it is that I've seen it on display at Best Buy. Anyone familiar with this product, or its manufacturer Akai?

Oh fuck! Superior Drummer for LESS than I paid for EZDrummer!!!!???

My luck continues...

Even a good drum program is no good if you don't know what to do with the beats. I took an arranging course from Berklee this summer and one of the coolest things about it was that they gave us songs to study, and charts to look at, and assignments stealing the grooves of the songs outright. Even so, I would have found that course difficult to keep up with if I hadn't had that year and a half of drum lessons. It's not really possible to write a decent groove if you don't have some clue what the drums are supposed to do. But I'm now convinced that the best way to get there is plagiarize from groovy songs. Otherwise you'll just sound like you're using random loops no matter how much work is going into them. Some of the folks here really have a knack for their drum programming, and I'm always impressed.

I've been a "program your own drum loop by clicking the piano scroll with the mouse" guy for as long as I've had access to computers good enough to do it, but after playing with the demo of jamstix for a few hours I'm finally convinced I need better tools.

I will probably buy some sort of drum software for myself as a Christmas present, but until then I might actually use the demo version of jamstix for my fights. Yes it randomly inserts noise, but I figure with several other instruments layered on top of the drums it won't be too noticeable and will still sound better than what I do now.

jeff robertson wrote:I might actually use the demo version of jamstix for my fights. Yes it randomly inserts noise, but I figure with several other instruments layered on top of the drums it won't be too noticeable and will still sound better than what I do now.

Just do some random yell or guitar noise over every beep on the demo, lmao!

@Elaine. As far as plagiarizing drums beats. That's the thing about drums, there are only so many standard beats. Wouldn't that be like saying you're plagiarizing Dickens for using the word "the" in your story? Not a good analogy, but you know what I mean? I suppose if you mimicked a certain drummers style or technique, people might say, hey, you play similar to Neil Peart, etc. I hear things that drummers do all the time and I have a mixture of my favorite things that I like. But if I do a Dave Grohl flam in my song somewhere, I don't think that means I'm plagiarizing him. I don't know, I'm just thinking out loud here.

Billy's Little Trip wrote: That's the thing about drums, there are only so many standard beats.

Which has always made it weird to me how wrong people sometimes get it.

I don't think I've ever seen a cheap casio-style keyboard where half the presets didn't sound like "come on shake your body baby do that conga, you know you can't control yourself any long-ah", no matter what style of music they were supposed to be. I guess, eventually, the rhythm *is* gonna get you.

ElaineDiMasi wrote:I took an arranging course from Berklee this summer and one of the coolest things about it was that they gave us songs to study, and charts to look at, and assignments stealing the grooves of the songs outright.

By the by, I would love for you to share that syllabus and/or some of the materials. I've felt like my drum programming has had a few quantum-leap moments. Like, when I realized that the kick didn't actually have keep the beat, so I could stop placing on every beat 1, 2, 3, 4. Having access to a quality-sounding samples was a big moment, too. I've been in a holding pattern for a while: time to learn something new.

Here's an opportunity: how do you program a fill/break? You know, that bar or two before the chorus really kicks it out and you want to let the "drummer" show off and bring everything to a crescendo? I've never really managed to get one that I was really satisfied with.

nyjm wrote:

ElaineDiMasi wrote:I took an arranging course from Berklee this summer and one of the coolest things about it was that they gave us songs to study, and charts to look at, and assignments stealing the grooves of the songs outright.

By the by, I would love for you to share that syllabus and/or some of the materials. I've felt like my drum programming has had a fell quantum-leap moments. Like, when I realized that the kick didn't actually have keep the beat, so I could stop placing on every beat 1, 2, 3, 4. Having access to a quality-sounding samples was a big moment, too. I've been in a holding pattern for a while: time to learn something new.

Here's an opportunity: how do you program a fill/break? You know, that bar or two before the chorus really kicks it out and you want to let the "drummer" show off and bring everything to a crescendo? I've never really managed to get one that I was really satisfied with.

Oooh, ditto all that.

nyjm wrote:Here's an opportunity: how do you program a fill/break?

Breaks are pretty easy, because you're breaking on a kick or a snare. As you're listing to the song with your mouse in hand, stop it where you'd like the break. Then expand the track and look at the closest peak, say it's the kick, then line up the cursor, and split at cursor (in cubase) Now at this point, I shrink the tracks back down, look at all my tracks that need to get split at the cursor, highlight them and split them and delete the end parts.

Now to make it sound realistic, it can't be too clean or perfect. So if my drums ended on a kick, I line up a chocked cymbal hit with properly added overheads and room ambiance. Then I go back and re-record the guitar and bass parts and end at the break. Now I have a realistic break.

Fills are another thing entirely. If you are programing from scratch, this is where it helps to play drums. There are programming techniques to sound real. But you have to think like a drummer. For instance, you know if you are doing a 3 tom fill with double stick hits, the sticks don't hit exactly together and you wouldn't want them to. They are delayed from each other and the velocity is not the same. So, remember to do that as you program.

BUT, let's remember one thing. Just because you play guitar, doesn't mean you have to know how to play drums. Some people like to play multiple instruments. Me, I just like string instruments and percussions, that's it. No desire to play keys or horns, I leave that to the professionals. The same goes for drums. That's why on the previous page I said I'd recommend EZdrummer or Discrete drums to anyone I know that doesn't play drums. Who ever the professional drummer is on the library you pick, he IS your drummer. Just like if you were in a band. So let him worry about your fills, etc. It's up to you to arrange and produce him. Say you like his beat, but you want a break, you break it. Say he has some good fills, but you hear double kick in a spot in the fill, you add it. So basically, you take the professional drummers beats, and you tweak them to your specs. This is something that has only become readily available to us in the past 10 years (with a real drummer). And it's only become easy and affordable in the past few years, as Jon pointed out on the previous page. For a $150 bux, you have a library that will take care of your drum requirements for YEARS.

Good God, man! You go about fill & breaks completely *#!@ed!
Before I tell you the patented "Signboy Method", though, I have to tell you that there IS one catch.
You don't have to be able to play the drums, but you DO have to be able to beat-box them, even if it sounds like a fat man being punched in the gut repeatedly. What matters is that the concept of the sound you want is solid in your head, and the grunts & mumbles make sense to you personally.

Here's what you do:
grunt, mumble, hum or beat-box the fill you want. Do it a couple times, till you've decided on something concrete.
Then re-create that with the samples you are using.

The point is: it's way easier to do anything musical if the concept is solidified in your mind first. Just like how if you're trying to play a new riff that you can't seem to get right, stop & learn to hum it. You won't be able to play it if you can't hum it, because it's not in your head.

Speaking from a novice musician perspective, I can say that money does not compensate for lack of knowledge. I've got all kinds of crap including EZdrummer, an e-kit, loops galore and the list goes on. And even with all that crap I still don't know what or where to put in as far as beats go. The computer won't respond Captain!!!

I found it pretty cool that Elaine, who in my eyes is a Goddess of music, took a course from Berklee. Thanks for that tip Elaine. I will look into it, although your warning of the level of understanding required is noted.

As Elaine says, if you don't have a clue about what should fit where, (like me) then you're hooped, regardless of full featured programs or whatever. Now unlike someone mentioned here about playing drums and stringed instruments, I play sax, some keys, guitar, etc etc but for some God forsaken reason I just don't hear drums in my head until someone hits me over the head with it. So, LML you're one up on me. And as far as I'm concern you rock girl. Drums or no drums.

If someone here has a link to, or is aware of a good book or series of videos that explain percussion and how it fits in the overall composition, do tell, I'd love to learn. I'm tired of feeling frustrated.

@SB. I actually do that quite often, but for guitar parts, lol. I do tap out drums on my desk. It is a good method.

That got me to thinking. I wonder if there is a program where you can't just do drum sounds into a mic and then a certain word is associated to a midi drum piece.
IE:
boop chicka bap chicka boop chicka bap bap

boops = kick
baps = snare
chickas = hi hat and/or Spanish girls
tings = ride
crash = crash
bump dump = mounted toms
thud = floor tom

LOL

2dogs wrote:I've got all kinds of crap including EZdrummer, an e-kit, loops galore and the list goes on. And even with all that crap I still don't know what or where to put in as far as beats go.

Ok, I have a quick question. Do you have an understanding of song structure? Or at least in the genre of music you are into writing? Because if you do, I don't understand how you can go to a library of loop groups that are actually called, verse, chorus, intro, ending, fill, etc etc and not know where to put that loop. EZDrummer has thousands of multi track loops.

Example. I'm doing a standard song structure:
intro - verse - chorus - verse - chorus - bridge- verse - chorus - chorus - end crash

If I were to use multi track loops, I'd go to a group that has a beat I like, then from that group, choose my intro I like - choose my verse I like - etc - etc.

So it seems to me that all you need is a basic understanding of song structures, right? I could be missing something, it wouldn't be the first time.

Billy's Little Trip wrote: boop chicka bap chicka boop chicka bap bap

YES.

signboy wrote:

Billy's Little Trip wrote: boop chicka bap chicka boop chicka bap bap

YES.

http://www.iua.upf.es/~ahazan/BillaBoop/

See/search also: drum replacement software (which does it keyed to frequencies, and is used for reinforcement).

That's pretty damn cool! I guess I'm really out of the loop, so to speak, on some of this new stuff. I've still never played around with beat box stuff, etc.