The Song Fight Bulletin Board

tonetripper wrote:I'm just curious as to what has you incensed about my post?

You said: I think, Kamakura, you should be careful when you speak of <insert anything>stereo mics</insert anything>.
I wasn't incensed. I was thrown back to schooldaze and a class with a teacher I loathed, who used to say just that... 't was awful.

Kamakura wrote:

tonetripper wrote:I'm just curious as to what has you incensed about my post?

You said: I think, Kamakura, you should be careful when you speak of <insert anything>stereo mics</insert anything>.
I wasn't incensed. I was thrown back to schooldaze and a class with a teacher I loathed, who used to say just that... 't was awful.

Fair enough. I should have said mics used in a stereo configuration. Sorry about that and the long posts (although I think there is a lot of insightful info there ). I was short-forming for ease of conversation, but I should know better. Cheers to a more engaging thread.

-Pablo

For Squirrel Damage, I have used all "real" drums, except for "In Full Effect". I have gotten somewhat decent results out of my micing setup. I use either an AKG d112 or a real cheap "san juan unified school district" mic that I got when they got rid of their A/V equipment for the kick. With a price difference of $200, I haven't really noticed a big difference- Then again I was probably placing the mic in the wrong spot with them both. Currently, I tape this little SJUSD mic onto a pillow which sits in the bass drum. I use an SM57 on the snare. Then, mounted to the walls in the corner of my room, I have 2 sm58s. I just use them because I had two available. SO those are the overheads. This setups allows me to get a drum track down really quickly with no soundcheck.

Tony Asbestos wrote:Then, mounted to the walls in the corner of my room, I have 2 sm58s.

I'm just curious how you do this. Are they pointed into the middle of the room, towards the kit? How? What?

Ken

Ken, Lemme answer that question for you. The 58s are about 7 feet off the ground, angled and pointing at the toms.

I record my drums through half a mic held in a tin can inside of a cave.

If anyone actually wants to know how I do my stuff, I can share, but it's pretty useless.

tonetripper wrote:

Kamakura wrote: I think, Kamakura, you should be careful when you speak of stereo mics. There is a lot of science (that and good ears) going into micing with multiple mics to achieve proper stereo.

Quick and dirty stereo drum micing:

1) get a 10' length of ordinary string
2) tape one end to the middle of the snare drum
3) get on your headphones and find a good sounding spot for one side mic
4) run the string out to it and note the distance
5) get a good sound on the opposite side
6) move the mic to the same point on the string, as close to your sonic sweet spot as possible
7) fiddle as needed
8) enjoy your well-phased drum track

blue wrote: Quick and dirty stereo drum micing:

1) get a 10' length of ordinary string

What kind of string is best for this? Would yarn work, or is there a special drummer's string I should buy?

Ken

i use braided ass hair.

tonetripper wrote:And by the way, glueing a PZM on a piece of wood does not make the mic more sensitive or bigger cuz IT ALREADY IS A SENSITIVE MIC!!!! It changes the polar pattern of the mic and depending on the surface would add colour to the mic by virtue of different bounce paths off the board.... blah, blah, blah. That is all it does. If that were the case then I guess an SM58 would be more sensitive or bigger if you glued it on a board as well (I guess it would to some degree but then you might have to get into finding out the absorption coefficients of the material (oak, pine, laminent particle board, plexiglass) used for the board or how painted it is) Then again get two 58s, glue them on boards and now you have stereo..... yippeee sound is fun. Jeeeeesh!!!

you might want to spend a few minutes making sure you know wtf you're talking about before you go repressing people, btw. PZM mics are fixed half-omni (hemispherical). changing the size of the backing plate affects the width of your sound field. a PZM mic is a condenser element pointed down at the backing plate, so it doesn't hear anything off the edges. mounting a PZM to a different back plate isn't going to affect the pattern - nothing can affect the pattern unless you pull the element out of the back plate - but you might get a change in frequency response from the sympathetic vibrations of the backing material. PZMs are designed to hear nothing but the point-source, so they are able to achieve a fairly clear response even in a cluttered room with lots of whatever the hell you were talking about up there. the whole god-damned point of a PZM is that you avoid comb filtering and side and rear reflections.

unless the 58's capsule is omni, fixing an sm58 element to a backing plate will yield fuck-all. i'm pretty sure it's a cardioid element, tho, so all you'd hear is the space under the element with all the sound blocked by the element itself. you'd get a buncha bleed and whuff.

also an sm58 is a passive dynamic mic and PZMs are electret condensers, so PZMs are much more sensitive than 58s.

re-reading this whole thread, KK's original post was exactly correct. if you're hanging a PZM in open space, a small back plate will pick up much less sound than a large one. it also looks like you do have at least 50% of a clue as to what a PZM mic is, which makes your rant even more ignorant.

The 58s comment was meant as sarcastic to the idea of glueing PZMs to boards. Unnecessary and kinda silly (to endeavouring my point that is). Was trying to get to the point that glueing PZMs to boards doesn't make them more sensitive or a great portable stereo pair (especially from an acoustical standpoint).

And yes you are right and I was wrong. PZMs are hemispherical and not omni, but if you have a PZM out in a room in your hand with enough gain you can bet that the hemispherical pattern of the mic when not coupled to a surface will not be a perfect hemisphere. In fact I would hazard to say that it would probably simulate a cardioid polar pattern in many respects. Coupling it to a wall or flat surface does change the polar pattern at various gain stages. That's just physics. Think of off-access ports on a super-hyper cardioid. The reason the pattern is so narrow in a SHC is because the off access ports alter the sound that goes down the barrel to the membrane. There really is not that much difference sonically in make-up in the membranes. Now I don't have the textbooks out when I state this but spewing knowledge that has transformed over the years from a professional standpoint. The nomenclature may not be correct completely but the concepts are.

So the back plate of the PZM will only inhibit spill over if you couple it to a surface. By changing the surface you are altering the polar pattern cuz you are changing the width of the microphone as you increase gain which is not dis-similar to the concept of a hyper-card. You can bet anything that membranes for most mics from a particular company are pretty much the same and the design of the body or capsule head of the microphone is what dictates the polar pattern.

Not that different from attaching a board to a PZM would be from putting a cardioid, let's say the dynamic 58 (which I know is dynamic by the way and was in no way comparing to a PZM but was being facetious) into a long tube. Sure it changes the frequency characteristics, but it also changes the polar pattern. Listen to two mics from the same company but of different patterns. Say a cardioid condenser with a hyper-card condenser and I'll bet you that they either tamper with the microphone internally to get them to sound pretty much the same (electronically speaking) but usually there will be a difference in frequency response from them inherent in the capsule and body construction.

The concept of attaching a board to a PZM would not be that different from using a reflector plate on the back of a SHC for eavesdropping on conversations. The reflector changes the bounce paths of the sound back into the capsule, by virtue altering the pattern to a tighter one for pin-point accuracy to achieve intelligibility in a conversation.

And ya in my prior post I was speaking as though I knew of the pattern of the PZM, but it's been so long since I broke out the notes from so, so long ago that I was speaking more from my experience with them. And I do feel fundamentally that although PZMs are hemispherical on paper they don't behave like it when you give them enough gas. They ain't all that directional that's for sure, but I'll take more time to shit out the post for your and everyone's benefit. Was feeling a little angsty that day. I always forget the Blue factor. Thanks for keeping me on my toes. Sorry KK.

I thought this was the drum thread?

I've got a question for ya all:

How often and what do you practice? Just curious,as over the past few weeks I've been practicing more than usual.... currently working on a book called "advanced funk studies" by Rick Latham.... cool book. Also been re-examining my techinique, and I'm gonna start reviewing rudiments this week....

to answer my own question in this drum thread, not the stereo mic physics thread....

I practice at least an hour a day, however, it may be drums, bass or guitar. (lately a lot of guitar).
Drums I'm doing about 5 hours a week. I used to do this whole scheduled practice thing, warmups, reading, technique, independence, styles, fills, soloing.... but with a family life and a day job, I mostly will try and use the advice of Rufus Reid... never practice something I already know.... which I balance out with the Paganinni (sp!!) concept "each day I relearn my technique anew".


Keeps me entertained and motivated.....

i never practice unless i'm writing or playing with the band. if i have a part i want to play but can't nail, i might practice that one bit till i can get it, but i usually do that by just playing it over and over while everyone else tries to play the song.

When I get into practicing, it is usually with "stick control" and a metronome. I've also got a book of patterns called "funky primer".

Ken

Lately, I've been awake from about 10pm to about 8am. This schedule is not condusive to drum practicing. Therefore, I've been practicing with the brushes a lot. I really like how the sound. I play probably about an hour a day, in little segments during commercials, etc.

I think I practiced once. I didn't like it much. Never went back.

Hey, I'm trying to get a good sound on that drum kit a buddy let me borrow. I found this through some convoluted links in another thread. The principle seems sound and somewhat similar to what Blue posted earlier, at least the overhead part anyhow.

So drummers, what mics do you use and in what kind of configuration? To get it started I actually used Blue's technique and a kick drum mic. Basic tests seemed pretty good, but I haven't done much more than just some basic tests. I used 2 Shure SM 81's for the overheads and an AKG D112 for the kick. I'm debating the benefits of more mics on the snare and toms, but would like your input before I go to the trouble.

Once I start getting steady checks from my new job, I'm gonna get a nice set. For mics, I'm looking at a set of Beta 57's, with maybe sm81's as overheads, and maybe a beta 52 on the kick.

With the toms and snare close-mic'ed, you'd have good control over the panning and level of the toms, and you'd be able to apply effects to individual sources. But is it worth $400 for the mics, $100 for stands, and $80 for cables? That's up to you.

Or, for a cheap mic set that rocks, go with the fusion 4 set. Pretty cool.

I've got my drums set up for DSPC recording, and here's two pictures ... if it helps with mic setup questions then great ...

DSPC?

blue wrote:DSPC?

Dr. Spectacular's Power Circus.