The Song Fight Bulletin Board

Caravan Ray, bdog - thank you for your kind words. I do not think either of you are fighting this week, are you?

BillyOh - Thank you for your review. I enjoy your song among the top of the pack this week. I think the vocal melody is mostly pulled from one or more popular songs; it happens to everyone. But at least you have the sense and capability to do so. The synth was a good choice, and the verb on the vocals is just right. Your vocal performance is among the stronger ones here - keep it up.

JB - Thank you for the hilarious reviews. I would like to take this time to address your concerns. You may want to put on my song while you read this, since it could take a while.

Regarding lyrics, I will be the first to admit that mine are incredibly weak and frail like a malnourished kitten left outside to die, or your Christmas bonus. However, in my mind, music takes priority over words, and so long as none of them were distractingly offensive (such as the song "Catfood" by King Crimson), then I feel they have done their intended purpose. While labels such as "neutral", "universal", and "booooooooring" may indeed be appropriate, I truly feel that I've described a somewhat unique feeling with my song, and that I've conveyed that feeling with my performance and music rather than pedantically descriptive words that satisfy your need for an alien orgy in every song (and I really have no desire to start making joke songs, anyway). Long story short, you were correct that I had already known my lyrics were somewhat on the weak side, but your proposed solution for reconciling this shortcoming is not my cup of tea. While it's no excuse, to be fair to myself: when I've used more symbolism in the past, I've received blank stares from the peanut gallery and complaints about how things don't make sense - so the truth of the matter is that I've adjusted my lyrics for that crowd, and I've gotten fairly positive results by doing so.

Regarding the length of the song: you were indeed correct that I knew this would be a criticism. I really do understand that this is a concern in this age of lolcats, high-fructose breakfast cereals, and the revival of My Little Ponies. However, there are two very good reasons for the length of the song, and neither may be valid in your eyes, but I would like to explain them to you since it was obviously a very large hang-up (as made apparent by your reviews). Firstly, I feel that the length of the song is appropriate for the subject matter. As you may have noticed, the song focuses on waiting a long time. I was hoping to build up musical emotion - perhaps I failed there - but at the same time, can you really fault me for making a song about "waiting a long time" long? It's totally symbolic. I believe that to be the technical term that literary analysts use. Second of all, I want to see how long I can make a song and still keep it interesting. Yes, I understand that everyone's time is limited and I'm lucky that people even listen past the intro, BUT for the people that do listen past the intro and do enjoy it, then it is like eating a King Size Snickers instead of a Mini Snickers, or sitting in the bathtub with a cold glass of whiskey. I enjoy both of those things, don't you? On top of that, when they (or more likely, I) listen to the song on loop, it will take four days to wear out instead of two.

As for your song, I imagine it appeals to me as much as mine to you. I don't understand what these words mean, other than some man in spandex may be dancing to them, and that makes me feel terribly uncomfortable. The vibe is very spastic and self-conscious. Personally, I would lay back the tempo or drums and give it more of a "groove" feel than a "jingle" feel, but you know what you like, and you would have done that if that's what you like. The compression feels too harsh in some places, or the synth is tingling my spidey senses (example: 2:09-2:17). The guitar section is my favorite, and I would like it to be a little longer. The delay on the vocals may be a little overkill, particularly at the chorus. Congratulations, coming in at 3:16 you have an 80s pop hit. The vocals are pleasant and I suppose after a few listens I may be dancing in spandex too, or performing a montage in a Patrick Swayze movie.

^Yes, this post is purposefully ironically long.

After listening to JB's explanation of a pad, I get it now. I've heard the term and thought it was a type of equipment or software. But it's interesting that I have often done this in my mixes instinctively to thicken or add frequencies needed. I usually only use a guitar or bass to do a pad, like a sustained bass note until it fades out, or a single note on a guitar to the beat, etc. So thank you for the explanation, Jaybmeister.

HeuristicsInc wrote:Heine's lyrics are good. It's a similar idea to what I had in mind but didn't write
-bill

Thanks! It started joking with my colleague (I've... got a wife... that's enough!) - It ought to be a rock song. But then I got these drum machine plug in and it went like that.

wickedcripple wrote:heine - Loved the keys

Thanks, too! Well, there's nothing but some keys this time... (Besides my attempts at singing.)

jb wrote:heine - ...It's 3:52 and it feels like it.

You are completely right. After submitting this one I had to shorten it and make the vocals a bit clearer; I put the edited remix on my page. But still it annoys me somehow - dunno Y. (My Looking at the sea entry was far from being perfect and I still enjoy it very much!)

Dirge is right: Pannacotta Army is really great.
Reviews will be following after listening to all songs in my car.

I finally figured out what your synth rhythm reminds me of, Heine: "Funky Town"

Bgm--- What brand of Acoustic is that? and is the guitar a recording a blend of mike and piezio or what. Just enjoy the sound. If you dont answer your a prick.

hillbilly wrote:Bgm--- What brand of Acoustic is that? and is the guitar a recording a blend of mike and piezio or what. Just enjoy the sound. If you dont answer your a prick.

Heh.
It's actually 4 tracks of guitars. The strummy guitars and one track of picking is a Martin HD28 and the more pronounced picking is a Canadian parlor guitar by Art & Lutherie called an Ami. Awesome little guitar, cedar top, for about $200.
Recorded with a Studio Projects C1 condenser mic, placed around the 12th fret angled toward the soundhole for the Martin, more straight-on for the Ami. EQ'd the low end out and added a bit of sparkle at around 5k.

Thanks, glad you like it.

HOLY BALLS!!I knew I was having technical difficulties with my ASIO driver but DAMN!! When you guys are saying those levels are hot, you're being nice! This is terrible! When I previewed the track in iTunes before I sent it, it sounded quiet and a bit distorted in the vocal range. But this is absolute BULLOCKS!! I wouldn't ask my deaf relatives to vote for this week's submission after having listened to what actually happened with it. Damn, I really wish iTunes (or my ASIO driver, or whatever the hell allowed this garbage to pass off as listenable) hadn't deceived me on this one

Please, feel free to continue ripping me a new one... I wouldn't even vote for this one myself...

Bgm, Thank you for taking the time to explain. That cheap plaror sounds good.

some reviews which are obviously all my own opinion which ain't worth much of anyone's money.

Life In Decibels - no vote because the song is not dynamic enough and the instrumentation doesn't gel together. the overall impression is rather weedy and lacking warmth.

Ross Durand - no vote because as much as I like the cheery ukulele rhythm and enthusiastic vocals, I'm not connecting to the song for some reason. the vocal bass doesn't really cut it enough.

Dejected Motives - no vote because of the nasty low rumbling distortion and rubbish toy saxophone. if I thought this was employed ironically I wouldn't mind but I'm sure it's not. it has got a simple 1980s euro-pop pumpy drive which I kind of like though.

Klownhole - no vote because I simply don't like this. I think it's well executed and the production is good. maybe its just too heavy or its the lack of melody and monotonous delivery that I find wearisome, but it just don't tickle my fancy.

heine - no vote because it doesn't sound tight enough and it's too repetitive, especially that stringy synth melody line - more variation please. this sounds like a song that didn't quite make it onto an OMD album, not bad, but not quite up to scratch.

Paco del Stinko - no vote because I don't do comedy in song format, especially this type of weird al cum B52s vocal delivery. I was however enjoying the blippy toy synth sound (albeit repetitive) and the surf guitar

GreaseMonkey - no vote because until you get confidence into the delivery of your vocals you're going to carry on alienating potential followers of your chiptune offerings. it's just too long for what it is.

Pigfarmer Jr - no vote because the chorus chord sequence/melody/etc all sounds too familiar and the cymbal crashes sound nasty and occur too often. more variety in the drums overall would improve things.

Hip Hop Anonymous - no vote because if I hear the word bitches in another hip hop tune I'm going to throw my iPad across the room and that would not do at all. maybe its supposed to be ironic but i just don't care. on the plus side the music is put together okay though the game-ish synth lead gets a little grating

bgm - vote because its the best bloody tune in this fight . the vocal is wonderfully warm and you have the sort of effortless voice that I envy. the simple guitar accompaniment is perfect too and the accordian, melodica or whatever it is, is the icing on the donut. just an all round pro sounding track and a great song.

Manhattan Glutton - no vote because although there's nothing really bad about this song, there's equally nothing i find really endearing or extraordinary about it either, though it could easily be two minutes shorter.

Semolina Pilchards - vote because I like the interplay between the two guitars and you sound like Donald Fagen in the early days. nice laid back relaxing feel with a touch of XTC.

The John Benjamin Band - vote because even though you devoted a several lines to slagging off my mediocre lyrics and you shouted part of it in CAPITALS in front of everyone, I nevertheless think this is a  good pop tune with a catchy chorus and excellent vocals. the first half is a little uneventful but the latter is chocked with clever touches and nice production. I particularly like the delay on the vox. I'll have to console myself in the hope that you look as weasely in real life as you do in your avatar.

Billy & The Psychotics - no vote because it needs to be stronger in terms of musicality to work in this format. it's very well performed and the arrangement is fine but the one chord improvisation type structure is not dynamic enough to enraptured my lug holes.

Berkeley Social Scene - no vote because there's something in the timbre of the vocal that I don't like. it's not out of tune or anything, it just makes me sort of uncomfortable. the song is okay although it lacks any particular stand out element in the arrangement or composition to make it really memorable.

Billy Oh! - no vote because putting a cymbal crash on the end of every line is quite annoying. this has got a fairly good 80s style Ultravox or whatever synthy vibe and the main melody is decent enough but it's too repetitious, as is the chord progression, arp, percussion, etc. 

Monkey Touchers - no vote because you made me waste one minute and 23 seconds of my life (yes, i did endure it all) and I'm wasn't even listening at work. 

ShotPounder - no vote because of the horrible guitar solo. shame, because this rocks and it's put together tightly. the bass could be punchier, but the angry vocals are over-brimming with energy.

Guiterrorists - no vote because although I might have lapped up this kind of egotistic posturing when I was 14, I'm now considerably older and wiser. I was hoping guitar solos might be heading the same way as drum solos, but apparently not. nice tones on the guitars though.

Mike Lamb (feat. Suckweasel) - no vote because with all those mixed era retro sounds (ring my bell syndrum, DX7 bassline, vocoder, etc) this should really be some sort of pastiche but it clearly isn't. Not floating my boat but I am slightly curious as to what Suckweasel's contribution was however.

Ripping Hammer - vote because it's a very original sound, all a bit murky and slightly shambolic but its fun. I love the verse and chorus melodies although I am disappointed that they don't reprise. in fact I'd like the whole thing to be a bit longer.

the panna cotta army wrote:some reviews which are obviously all my own opinion which ain't worth much of anyone's money.
Klownhole - no vote because I simply don't like this. I think it's well executed and the production is good. maybe its just too heavy or its the lack of melody and monotonous delivery that I find wearisome, but it just don't tickle my fancy.

No melody??? I don't know what song you were listening to. Did you NOT hear the "Dog shit on the sidewalk" chorus work? Or the dueling Celtic Frost death grunts and hey's?

In all seriousness though, I can't even muster some fake outrage here. Your song was frankly amazing. Dare I say, gorgeous. Yep. I dare.

Dear the panna cotta army,

I really like your songs. I think it would be great if you consistently used the same band name when you entered, though, so that all your songs showed up on the same page in the archive and on my jukebox ( http://sfjukebox.org/ ). Looks like you've submitted twice as "The Panna Cotta Army", five times as "Panna Cotta Army", and twice as "The Pannacotta Army".

http://sfjukebox.org/artists?artistName ... Name=panna

Spud just uses whatever band name people send him, so it's up to the submitters to be consistent if they want all their songs grouped together.

Thanks,
A fan

PS You're not the only person who's submitted under various slightly different names, and I don't mean to pick on your or single you out, I just happened to notice it while listening to the new fight and enjoying your song.

RE: Panna Cotta review--

So, when you were listening, you thought to yourself, "I've had enough of this crap?"

I hate synthpop and rap, and love rock and roll. There, I said it.

Berkekley (hey, that's what the id3 says) Social Scene: Huh. Cutesy Rembrandts-esque new "Friends" theme song. Or maybe some after-school tween show. Blech.

BGM: Nice music, nice vocals. Vote.

Billy & the Psychotics: No. Just, no.

billy oh: Kind of Depeche Mode-ey. I usually hate on synthpop, but this is okay.

Dejected Motives: More synthpop, except this one has serious low-end issues. Pretty repetetive.

Greasemonkey: A broken Nintendo. Bad vocals.

Guiterrorists: This is mo and myself, so I'll keep my opinions to myself, other than "wanky".

heine: More synthpop. I thought we killed this genre off in like 1987? I mean, this is an ok song, but pretty much done to death.

hiphopanonymous: Nooooow, here's a little story..

The JBB: Is this Laddy Gaga? (obviously you deserve a vote)

Klownhole: I wish I could vote for this 1000 times. "No more buttsecks" Awesome.

Life in Decibels: Still more synthpop. Why?

Manhattan Glutton: Now this I like. Like a flashback to 1994. Next time make it a bit shorter though. Vote.

Mike Lamb: This would be better if Rob Zombie did it, and it had crunchy guitars.

monketouchers: Horrible. Stop it.

Paco del Stinko: Punkadellic. Leave the boopbeepboopy stuff out, I think the song would have stood on its own without it.

The Pannacotta Army: Familiar, but it's just beyond my grasp what it reminds me of* Nice song, dude. Vote. *AHAH! George Michaels.

Pigfarmer Jr: With a bit of production, this could be a powerpop masterpiece. As it is, it's a bit sloppy and clunky, but I'll throw you a vote anyway.

Ripping Hammer: Why does this come up as "Russian Arctonauts"? Did you send the right song in? The song's not bad, so if you can convince me you wrote and recorded this for the title, I'll give it a vote.

Ross Durand: More like Ross Dylan, amirite? (vote)

Semolina Pilchards: Nice. Me rikey, but I have to complain the vocals are mixed too low and are hard to make out. Vote.

Shotpounder: RAWWWWKKKK! ARRRRGGGHHH!!! I'M SO ANNNNNGGGGERRRRYYYY! (vote)

Märk wrote:I hate synthpop and rap, and love rock and roll. There, I said it.

Klownhole: I wish I could vote for this 1000 times. "No more buttsecks" Awesome.

It's awesome that you could tell we were saying "No more buttsecks" instead of "No more buttsex". You have a very discerning ear. For quality.

Lunkhead wrote:Dear the panna cotta army,

I really like your songs. I think it would be great if you consistently used the same band name when you entered, though, so that all your songs showed up on the same page in the archive and on my jukebox ( http://sfjukebox.org/ ). Looks like you've submitted twice as "The Panna Cotta Army", five times as "Panna Cotta Army", and twice as "The Pannacotta Army".

http://sfjukebox.org/artists?artistName ... Name=panna

Spud just uses whatever band name people send him, so it's up to the submitters to be consistent if they want all their songs grouped together.

Thanks,
A fan

PS You're not the only person who's submitted under various slightly different names, and I don't mean to pick on your or single you out, I just happened to notice it while listening to the new fight and enjoying your song.

sorry about that, I thought there was some inconsistency but I didn't realise there were three slightly differing names.
Henceforth, "The Pannacotta Army" is how I will submit. I doubt spud would be arsed to go back and change names now even if it was possible, not surprisingly!
PS - maybe I shouldn't mention it but also entered under the name of oddbod in the past

Oh, wow. You're oddbod! Cool!

Märk wrote:Billy & the Psychotics: No. Just, no.

Mark, it's me. You're supposed to like me no matter what! You promised!

...I thought Canadians were supposed to be nicer.

Billy's Little Trip wrote:...I thought Canadians were supposed to be nicer.

Man, haven't you ever watched South Park? We're a bunch of assholes.

Märk wrote:

Billy's Little Trip wrote:...I thought Canadians were supposed to be nicer.

Man, haven't you ever watched South Park? We're a bunch of assholes.

yeah, but they're from Colorado. Typical, Canadians trying to convince people that they are Americans to get past security.

The quickest way to separate who's Canadian and who's America. Point to the left and yell, TIM HORTON's IS HALF OFF ON COFFEE AND DONUTS!

Billy's Little Trip wrote:

Märk wrote:

Billy's Little Trip wrote:...I thought Canadians were supposed to be nicer.

Man, haven't you ever watched South Park? We're a bunch of assholes.

yeah, but they're from Colorado. Typical, Canadians trying to convince people that they are Americans to get past security.

The quickest way to separate who's Canadian and who's America. Point to the left and yell, TIM HORTON's IS HALF OFF ON COFFEE AND DONUTS!

Well, I was obviously referring to Terrence and Phillip. And your Tim Hortons trick would only expose the cops in the crowd.

Manhattan Glutton wrote:JB - Thank you for the hilarious reviews.

Very welcome.

Manhattan Glutton wrote:Regarding lyrics, I will be the first to admit that mine are incredibly weak and frail like a malnourished kitten left outside to die, or your Christmas bonus. However, in my mind, music takes priority over words, and so long as none of them were distractingly offensive (such as the song "Catfood" by King Crimson), then I feel they have done their intended purpose.

IMO you're letting yourself down if you do that. You're too talented in too many ways to be lazy with your lyrics.

Manhattan Glutton wrote: While labels such as "neutral", "universal", and "booooooooring" may indeed be appropriate, I truly feel that I've described a somewhat unique feeling with my song, and that I've conveyed that feeling with my performance and music

I'm ok if you feel that way. You're totally allowed to disagree with me. However, in the previous quote (and the one two down from this actually) you agree that your lyrics were "incredibly weak and frail." So I feel justified in refusing to allow you to cop out with that sentence.

Manhattan Glutton wrote:rather than pedantically descriptive words that satisfy your need for an alien orgy in every song (and I really have no desire to start making joke songs, anyway).

Well, that was really just me trying to be funny. I mostly don't like jokey lyrics-- but I do like interesting tales or even points of view told in an interesting way. Look at the Semolina Pilchards song-- it's about D&S or something, but the lyrics weren't strong enough (to me) to really convey what is a potentially very interesting take on life in an interesting song.

Manhattan Glutton wrote:Long story short, you were correct that I had already known my lyrics were somewhat on the weak side, but your proposed solution for reconciling this shortcoming is not my cup of tea.

This quote left in to prove my point above. But again, my proposed solution was a joking suggestion, as I realize much of your response is intended to be somewhat humorous.

Manhattan Glutton wrote:While it's no excuse, to be fair to myself: when I've used more symbolism in the past, I've received blank stares from the peanut gallery and complaints about how things don't make sense - so the truth of the matter is that I've adjusted my lyrics for that crowd, and I've gotten fairly positive results by doing so.

More symbolism isn't the point, interesting turns of phrase are the point. Make a line that I want to repeat, not just in melody but in words. It doesn't need to be awesomely original, just somewhat catchy. It's a hook. in Brad Sucks' "Bad Attraction" he says "I can tell by your middle finger that you're warming up to me". That's a good one. Brad's really good at that sort of thing, and he writes really "universal" lyrics.

Manhattan Glutton wrote:Regarding the length of the song: you were indeed correct that I knew this would be a criticism. I really do understand that this is a concern in this age of lolcats, high-fructose breakfast cereals, and the revival of My Little Ponies. However, there are two very good reasons for the length of the song, and neither may be valid in your eyes, but I would like to explain them to you since it was obviously a very large hang-up (as made apparent by your reviews). Firstly, I feel that the length of the song is appropriate for the subject matter. As you may have noticed, the song focuses on waiting a long time. I was hoping to build up musical emotion - perhaps I failed there - but at the same time, can you really fault me for making a song about "waiting a long time" long? It's totally symbolic. I believe that to be the technical term that literary analysts use. Second of all, I want to see how long I can make a song and still keep it interesting. Yes, I understand that everyone's time is limited and I'm lucky that people even listen past the intro, BUT for the people that do listen past the intro and do enjoy it, then it is like eating a King Size Snickers instead of a Mini Snickers, or sitting in the bathtub with a cold glass of whiskey. I enjoy both of those things, don't you? On top of that, when they (or more likely, I) listen to the song on loop, it will take four days to wear out instead of two.

See, in this entire paragraph I feel like you're making up reasons after the fact to justify your unwillingness to edit yourself. Just my interpretation! When I find myself doing that for my own songs, which absolutely happens, I punch myself in the neck and write "I will not be an excuse-making douchebag" 100 times in my own blood on the side of a birch tree.

Manhattan Glutton wrote:As for your song, I imagine it appeals to me as much as mine to you. I don't understand what these words mean, other than some man in spandex may be dancing to them, and that makes me feel terribly uncomfortable.

Well, I'll take that, since your song really had promise, though I chose to be funny about the incredibly weak and frail lyrics and the running time.

Manhattan Glutton wrote: The vibe is very spastic and self-conscious. Personally, I would lay back the tempo or drums and give it more of a "groove" feel than a "jingle" feel, but you know what you like, and you would have done that if that's what you like.

I didn't experiment with tempos very much, admittedly. When I took it slower on the original iPad construction, it seemed to be more fun at 140 bpm.

Manhattan Glutton wrote:The compression feels too harsh in some places, or the synth is tingling my spidey senses (example: 2:09-2:17).

Fair enough.

Manhattan Glutton wrote:The guitar section is my favorite, and I would like it to be a little longer.

Ha. The part that's straight up iPad Garageband Smart Guitar loop.

Manhattan Glutton wrote:The delay on the vocals may be a little overkill, particularly at the chorus.

Matter of taste there, I think.

Manhattan Glutton wrote:Congratulations, coming in at 3:16 you have an 80s pop hit.

Sounds like an insult, but I'm not offended. I like plenty of long songs, and have made plenty myself.

• My "Wrath of God" clocks in at 4:15
• "What We Need More Of Is Science" is 4:06
• And there's "Birds of Our Own" at a massive 5:35, and which I adore but totally don't expect anyone else to. (linked here to the version on my site, as the songfight entry was required to be mono at that time.)

But I really do agree that, for a certain type of song, that good old 2:50 - 3:15 range is a perfect little slice of tasty pop pie and one should take that into account in one's songcraft. Because that's my favorite kind of song-- in almost every style, rock, pop, synthpop-- that's the length I frequently shoot for.

For other types of songs, longer works. I just didn't think you really had that kind of song on your hands here, not that it couldn't have been made to be that, but I felt your songwriting here didn't lend itself to longer-is-better.

Manhattan Glutton wrote: The vocals are pleasant and I suppose after a few listens I may be dancing in spandex too, or performing a montage in a Patrick Swayze movie.

YOUTUBE

Manhattan Glutton wrote:^Yes, this post is purposefully ironically long.

I don't believe you. But thanks for the thoughtful response and the useful review!

JB

LOL yeah, i COMPLETELY get that .. I did the song like the day before the deadline .. and TRUST me, there will be a remake of the drum line .. I didn't catch it, and a few other things till after I submitted. Plus after the 20th take, my voice was fried on that high part or two. I do like my song, i had my Fiance' in mind when i wrote it .. so it's a love song. but i agree HEAVILY it needs work. btw, I LOVE ALL your STUFF. If you don't get signed to an indie label soon (unless you have), there is no justice in music. Thanks for the input.

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Billy Oh! - no vote because putting a cymbal crash on the end of every line is quite annoying. this has got a fairly good 80s style Ultravox or whatever synthy vibe and the main melody is decent enough but it's too repetitious, as is the chord progression, arp, percussion, etc.