The Song Fight Bulletin Board

IIRC, Puce uses Kontakt for his drums. I too am a fan the ReDrum machine in Reason for drum programming purposes. It is hella tight.

Kapitano wrote:

TheHipCola wrote:NOTHING beats live drumming

If it's well recorded, and if it fits with the genre.

It's an absolute nightmare to record real drums properly. The snare and hat tend to clip and hiss, the kick either reduces to a click or else it booms, and it'll take all the microphones you've got.

Playing drums is a blast and they don't have to be a nightmare to record. I don't fuss with "proper" though -- I just use 2 sm57 overheads and something on the bass on my $300 drumkit. Sometimes I move the mics around or add one further back in the room for dynamics, but I rarely spend any more time on drum sound than anything else. In fact, drums often happen quickest for me. I'm no drummer, but getting real drums after years of programming drum machines and loops improved my recordings tons. And even if you can't play that great, combining real drums with programming/looping makes a track breath.

I know people who actually know what they're doing can spend a whole lot of time and microphones on the proper sound and it can be a lot of labor and you can hear the quality. But if anyone's considering getting a starter set or something and is hesitating because you keep hearing how hard drums are to record, stop it. They're a lot of fun first, and it's really surprisingly easy to get a decent sound.

i'll vouch for the blind mime's drums. i remember when you got them and switched over (shortly after you started here if i remember right), and i've always thought your real drums songs sounded pretty damn good. recording and playing wise.

Actually my first songfight was "Blue Signal" which used my playing real drums but run through tuareg software. Everything after that, up to and after "Effect," was real drums straight into a little mackie mixer (no compression or anything; 2 sm57 mics and something on the bass). "Effect" used some of my realy drum loops 'cos I was trying something different). A couple times I've used the resident sounds on a roland octopad for bongo-type percussion, as on "Hey, Ruth" and "Cosmic Confirmation," which were both coupled with real drums. "Dinga Da Donga" and "The Chair We Share" used an Alesis drum machine by itself.

I had the drums about a year before finding songfight, but it took me many months to actually record with them. But that was pre-songfight. You read everywhere people saying you need this and that $200 microphone or better to record drums properly and all that. Mic the toms with this and that, the snare with this and that, the bass with this. Compression on this and dab of reverb here or there. Etc, etc. I was thinking about working up to that 'cos after many years of drum machine programming I just hated the sound of either looped or programmed drums. Always did, actually, but after that long, I just didn't want to use them any more.

Anyway, I emailed the engineeer for Fleetwood Mac's "Tusk" album 'cos I always liked that straightforward kinda sound on Mick's drums on that album. Also the boxy kinda sound on Lindsey Buckingham's home-recorded drums. The response was basically to just stop thinking about it too much; throw the mics up and record the damn things. Worry about various details later. So I just threw up a couple sm57's and one on the bass and, man, it sounded just fine. Run your final mix through t-racks or something and it rounds things out quite well. I've even gotten compliments from hollywood sound designers with that simple setup.

Yeah, eventually I'll probably have a little extra cash to spend on better mics and a better mixer and all that. But I'm getting a decent sound now that I'm happy with. Although I'm probably a little Ringo-esque old school in how I think drums should sound.

Judging from a few of the songs in this weeks' fights, and in SF! history, some people may not have ever actually heard a human being playing drums before. Generally a real drummer will use more than just kick and snare to lay down a beat. For a "standard" beat they usually also hit a hi-hat or ride cymbal, etc. as a sort of "metronome", if you will, often in regular quarter, eighth, sixteenth, etc. notes. If you leave that out it will make your fake drums sound many times more fake than if you add that.

When you're sequencing drums, it can often be helpful to lay down this "metronome" sound first, and quantize it. You can then record your kick/snare pattern along to that. If you want to save time, learn to play the hi-hat/ride with one hand, and the kick and snare with the other. You're never going to sound like Neil Peart doing this, but you can get to a point where you can quickly lay down a simple rock beat for your song.

What if you don't have a MIDI sequencer, you have to just lay down all your drum tracks live? In that sad situation, forget about the "metronome", because you're probably not going to be able to get the two tracks of drums in time with each other. Drums that are off the beat will probably sound bad no matter whether they're real or fake. If this is your situation, you're going to want to learn the two-hand technique since that's the only way you'll be able to play a less fake sounding beat live.

Lunkhead wrote:Judging from a few of the songs in this weeks' fights, and in SF! history, some people may not have ever actually heard a human being playing drums before.

This general idea that MIDI is bad because it is 'fake' seems to me to be missing the huge potential of using sounds in a different direction. It's not about trying to emulate, it's about trying to make use of what you have to its fullest potential. Just my opinion, mind ...

j$

I don't think MIDI is bad at all. I just think that trying to make realistic sounding MIDI drums involves using more than just the kick and snare drum sounds of your MIDI drum kit.

Hands On: Create Insane Reason Grooves
http://digitalmedia.oreilly.com/2005/05 ... nbeat.html

Nice tutorial, though I prefer hooking up 10 Matrixes (Matrices?) to a ReDrum, instead of using Dr Rex loops. Gate to gate, and curve to pitch. Complex, ever-shifting patterns were never easier!

Virtual drums via mouse clicks. Puts all this other stuff to shame.

time to ressurect this thread. i'd really like to see if folks have more good advice like Lunkhead's:

Lunkhead wrote:Generally a real drummer will use more than just kick and snare to lay down a beat. For a "standard" beat they usually also hit a hi-hat or ride cymbal, etc. as a sort of "metronome", if you will, often in regular quarter, eighth, sixteenth, etc. notes. If you leave that out it will make your fake drums sound many times more fake than if you add that.

my drum programming has been floundering lately and i think this was part of the reason: i was using the kick drum as my metronome (which seemed logical to me, but makes for a muddy/too full drum part, i think.)

njm

nyjm wrote:time to ressurect this thread. i'd really like to see if folks have more good advice like Lunkhead's:

Lunkhead wrote:Generally a real drummer will use more than just kick and snare to lay down a beat. For a "standard" beat they usually also hit a hi-hat or ride cymbal, etc. as a sort of "metronome", if you will, often in regular quarter, eighth, sixteenth, etc. notes. If you leave that out it will make your fake drums sound many times more fake than if you add that.

my drum programming has been floundering lately and i think this was part of the reason: i was using the kick drum as my metronome (which seemed logical to me, but makes for a muddy/too full drum part, i think.)

njm

It's not a bad idea to have a 'metrodome' to record guitar to. Just don't use it as your final drum track. Record your guitar part to the metrodome then go back and put a real drum track in. It's not easier to do it this way but it's a good way for you to learn that you don't make guitar changes right on every fourth beat. You can go back and put the bass drum on a different beat as well as move the snare around and/or add more of both. You can add back snazzy hi-hat as well as adding ride and splashes. (cymbals that don't just go tsk tsk tsk tsk SPLASH)

In a collaberation once, I took a guitar part (erik of 15/16 puzzle) and added drums and bass to it: http://chris.hoblit.net/sound/IRCAS-Mum ... ersion.mp3 This was done with only a guitar part and the BPM given. (I'm just short of: SEE? NOW YOU CAN DO IT TOO!!!)

Personally I write the drum tracks to each part of my songs as I go along and then record my final tracks to that full layed out drum track. This way I can anticipate the changes and it's almost as if I'm syncing with a real drummer. It helps to add color and accent to your guitar parts. However, learn to program your drums to your recorded guitar part first. (which was recorded to the exact BPM set by your previous metrodome track) The rest will come later.

Lunkhead wrote:You're never going to sound like Neil Peart

Hilarious, a ten minute long midi drum solo.

I like the pattern sequencer in reDrum in Reason. Only used it for a couple of songs so far, it makes programing things like high hat patterns really easy. The downside is that if you don't watch what you are doing you will end up with attack of the four armed drummer. Sometimes what you leave out is as important as what you put in. Er, there's a double entendre, you know what I mean though.

Thanks for the Dr. Rex tutorail Lunkhead. I am going to sepnd some time with that one.

Freddielove wrote:

Lunkhead wrote:You're never going to sound like Neil Peart

Hilarious, a ten minute long midi drum solo.


you will end up with attack of the four armed drummer.

ha @ 10 minute long midi drum solo...thats a funny thought.

I make 'impossible' drum tracks all the time. Nobody ever notices but I laugh a little inside when I hear my drummer smack a ride, crash, hi-hat, bass drum, and floor tom all at the same time. Not to mention all the crazy crap he does just beats before to get there.