The Song Fight Bulletin Board

Generic wrote: I just want to hear a passage of any length in your song with at least two iterations, one in a major key and one in a minor key. I could be an instrumental line, a line of melody, a couple of chords, doesn't really matter to me as long as it's recognizable as a modulated repetition. Don't expect to get away with something like "Well, I used an E major chord here, and an E-minor chord later in the song"; there needs to be some recognizable musical element being repeated.

?!?!

This is a bit beyond my musical knowledge.
Not sure I really get what a "major" key and a "minor" key is
Oh well...I should be able to fake it

I read the challenge as, have a section of your song, that occurs at least twice in your song, and occurs at least once each in a major key and a minor key.

So, for example, your chorus might be in A major the first two times, then in A minor the last two times. Or maybe you have a bridge, which happens twice, once major and once minor.

CR, are you trolling or serious? It seems like the judges assumed that everybody would understand what they meant by "major" and "minor" but it's possible there are folks out there who don't know what those terms mean.

Generic wrote:I just want to hear a passage of any length in your song with at least two iterations, one in a major key and one in a minor key. I could be an instrumental line, a line of melody, a couple of chords, doesn't really matter to me as long as it's recognizable as a modulated repetition. Don't expect to get away with something like "Well, I used an E major chord here, and an E-minor chord later in the song"; there needs to be some recognizable musical element being repeated.

Actually, on reading this again what I did fits fine. It's not the most elaborate, Paul McCartney-esque execution of the challenge, but the verse is entirely repetitions switching from Dmaj to Dmin with a slightly modified melody that corresponds.

It's also not nearly as polished as my other two songs, but as this isn't StudioFight I reserve the right to run the gamut from polished to field recording as needed.

Lunkhead wrote:I read the challenge as, have a section of your song, that occurs at least twice in your song, and occurs at least once each in a major key and a minor key.

So, for example, your chorus might be in A major the first two times, then in A minor the last two times. Or maybe you have a bridge, which happens twice, once major and once minor.

Yeah, you've got the nail on the head as far as what we had in mind before posting the challenge. Based on the discussion from earlier today, this is not the only valid interpretation of the challenge.

CR, are you trolling or serious? It seems like the judges assumed that everybody would understand what they meant by "major" and "minor" but it's possible there are folks out there who don't know what those terms mean.

I'm a bit curious about this too. I know that it's possible to make good music without having much working knowledge of music theory terms, but Nur Ein challenges do sometimes use technical terminology. "Major" and "minor" are pretty fundamental concepts in music theory, and I don't think it's too much to ask that a competitor know what they mean or be able to acquaint themselves with the concept in the time allotted. If you want to start a semantic discussion about what elements make a section "major" or "minor," there's some validity to that, but I really hope you're not sincerely befuddled at the very concept.

Look, we're not asking you to compose a solfeggietto in presto agitato with at least two cadenzas, one of which must feature a half-step trill of at least two full measures and the other of which must feature a glissando and a sforzando chord. Previous challenges have called for "Accelerando" and for a song to be "through composed," so I apologize if modulation between major and minor keys is the thing that throws you for a loop.

I don't get how we can be so exacting about this challenge, but completely fail when it comes to interpreting "Villanelle" - a nineteen line poem of fixed form (Nur Ein 7).

Yes, I'm still bitter about that one.

(Brunglish for all)

This judge says:

- The challenge will be accomplished according the judge criteria if some part of the song (e.g. a chorus E-A-B), appears once o more times with his chords (o some of) turned to minor (Em - A - B; Em-Am-Bm; etc...).

- For this judge, this game with the chords brings a change of mood/feel of a certain part of the song. Something like an "alternative" version of a fragment (a trick very useful in songwritting). That kind of thing is that i'll look for, but...

- ... under the incontrovertible true "the challenge must be", any interpretation can be valid if literally fits in "Song must include a repeating section that goes from Major to Minor or vice versa". A judge lives in The Eternal Trap of the Words.

- In other side, I agree on C'Ray claim. There is a massive amount of musicians wearing electric weapons who really don't know wtf is the difference beetwen a minor or major chord. In certain levels I'm one of them. I'm a bit affraid if there's a contestant who reads the challenge and it sounds as the end of the TydonDocker spoken word bridge.

In other words, Nur Ein!!!!!!!!!

Lunkhead wrote: CR, are you trolling or serious? It seems like the judges assumed that everybody would understand what they meant by "major" and "minor" but it's possible there are folks out there who don't know what those terms mean.

Serious.

I know what a major and minor chord on my guitar is - but I assume they don't just want a repetition of major and minor chords - eg - playing Psycho Killer - Am G Am G


I know that if I play the chords: G Em C and D - I am playing in the key of G (I hope that's right)
Is there a key of Gm? If so - what chords would I need to play to play in it?

Generic wrote: So, for example, your chorus might be in A major the first two times, then in A minor the last two times. Or maybe you have a bridge, which happens twice, once major and once minor.

Oh OK - this is sort of making it clearer.

Can you tell me what 3 or 4 chords I can play to make the key of A minor? I should be able to work it out from there.
As I understand it - if I play A, D and E, I am playing in A major?


Sorry - I really have never learnt any of this. I have just learnt over there years that certain chords go together - and some don't. And think I have a rough idea of what a song in the Key of G, or A or E might be. But don't know how I would play in a minor key.



EDIT:


Just looked at Wikipedia - it says:
A minor (abbreviated Am) is a minor scale based on A, consisting of the pitches A, B, C, D, E, F, and G.

WTF?!?! That doesn't help me. If I played a chorus with A-D-E - it would appear that that would be both a major and a minor key?

Generic wrote:
I'm a bit curious about this too. I know that it's possible to make good music without having much working knowledge of music theory terms, but Nur Ein challenges do sometimes use technical terminology. "Major" and "minor" are pretty fundamental concepts in music theory, and I don't think it's too much to ask that a competitor know what they mean or be able to acquaint themselves with the concept in the time allotted. If you want to start a semantic discussion about what elements make a section "major" or "minor," there's some validity to that, but I really hope you're not sincerely befuddled at the very concept.

Look, we're not asking you to compose a solfeggietto in presto agitato with at least two cadenzas, one of which must feature a half-step trill of at least two full measures and the other of which must feature a glissando and a sforzando chord. Previous challenges have called for "Accelerando" and for a song to be "through composed," so I apologize if modulation between major and minor keys is the thing that throws you for a loop.

I very much like these technical type challenges. I learn something from them. I think the villanelle one from last year has been my favourite so far.

If someone can just throw me a bone and give me an A major group of chords and an A minor group of chords - I should be able to take it from there.

The chords in the key follow the scale of the key.

The A major scale consists of:

A B C# D E F# G#

The chords in the key of A major would be made of those notes, which would result in:

A Bm C#m D E F#m G#dim

That last one is a diminished chord, which in this case would be G#+B+D (more or less, kind of simplifying a bit here).

The A minor scale consists of:

A B C D E F G

(You may notice these are the same notes as the C major scale. A minor is the "relative minor" of C major.)

The chords in the key of A minor would be made of those notes, which would result in:

Am Bdim C Dm Em F G

You can maybe get away with Bm instead of Bdim, but Bdim is B+D+F if you want to try out the diminished chord.

For more info, the way the chords are built from the scale notes is, to make an A chord in key of A major, you look at the A major scale, take the A, skip a note, take the C#, skip a note, then take the E. Those three notes played together make up the chord (aka triad) that defines the basic chords you're probably used to playing. Same goes for making minor chords from the minor scale.

Caravan Ray wrote:If someone can just throw me a bone and give me an A major group of chords and an A minor group of chords - I should be able to take it from there.

It's not really about chords so much as the melody on top of the chords. Think of the Sound of Music - Doe a deer a female deer - that song is blatantly major and goes through the major scale. Now, if you consistently changed out some of the notes in that song, you could make it 'minor'. I recommend just looking at guitar tabs/youtube for different scales, then figuring out your melodies, and then picking chords that go with the melodies (rather than vis-versa).

The chart here may help:
http://www.ezfolk.com/uke/Tutorials/1fo ... chart.html

Lunkhead wrote:The chords in the key follow the scale of the key.

The A major scale consists of:

A B C# D E F# G#

The chords in the key of A major would be made of those notes, which would result in:

A Bm C#m D E F#m G#dim

That last one is a diminished chord, which in this case would be G#+B+D (more or less, kind of simplifying a bit here).

The A minor scale consists of:

A B C D E F G

(You may notice these are the same notes as the C major scale. A minor is the "relative minor" of C major.)

The chords in the key of A minor would be made of those notes, which would result in:

Am Bdim C Dm Em F G

You can maybe get away with Bm instead of Bdim, but Bdim is B+D+F if you want to try out the diminished chord.

Ok, thanks

So an A-D-F#m-E chorus could be changed to an Am-Dm-F-Em chorus?

That should be enough to let me work on this for the moment


Surely I'm not the only person to be puzzled by this stuff??

Niveous wrote:The chart here may help:
http://www.ezfolk.com/uke/Tutorials/1fo ... chart.html

Yes, thank you - that is exactly what I needed.

I should be right now - thanks all - that little table should do the trick.
I'm gonna print that out and stick it somewhere.

C-Ray, it seems that your confusion stems from somehow missing out on this point:

A scale (be it major or minor) is composed of individual notes, not chords. So when you saw that the G-major scale is composed of G, A, B, C, D, E, and F#, those are individual notes, not chords. The G-major scale could encompass a ton of different chords, but the "standard" would be G, E-minor, C, and D or D7.

You were asking about what would constitute an A-minor song. A-minor, D-minor, and E-minor or E-major.

Here are some jumping off points that I'm reasonably confident you'll be familiar with.

"Louie Louie" is in a major key (E major, usually). It's E, A, B.
"The House of the Rising Sun" is in a minor key (A minor). It's A-minor, C-major, D-major, F-major, and E-major. Notably, most of the chords are "major" chords, but the melody stays in the A-minor key.

I'll throw some more your way later on, but I've got other stuff to do tonight.

Generic wrote:C-Ray, it seems that your confusion stems from somehow missing out on this point:

A scale (be it major or minor) is composed of individual notes, not chords. So when you saw that the G-major scale is composed of G, A, B, C, D, E, and F#, those are individual notes, not chords. The G-major scale could encompass a ton of different chords, but the "standard" would be G, E-minor, C, and D or D7.

Well - I wasn't really confused about this point, just clear in the fact that I didn't understand it. I sort of understand - as you and Lunk and MG have explained - that different scales are made up of different notes, but I simply don't know what these are, because I have never learnt them. I have memorised guitar chord shapes - but have no idea what notes they are made up of.

So - while MG's suggestion above is obviously a good one:
(I recommend just looking at guitar tabs/youtube for different scales, then figuring out your melodies, and then picking chords that go with the melodies (rather than vis-versa)),

and one day I hope to follow up on it - it isn't going to happen this week.

So - I am fully aware of my lack of basic music theory - I just needed a quick easy 'cheat' to get me through this for now. Niv's link should do the trick.

Generic wrote: Here are some jumping off points that I'm reasonably confident you'll be familiar with.

"Louie Louie" is in a major key (E major, usually). It's E, A, B.
"The House of the Rising Sun" is in a minor key (A minor). It's A-minor, C-major, D-major, F-major, and E-major. Notably, most of the chords are "major" chords, but the melody stays in the A-minor key.

Yes - "HotRS" is a good example. I have used those chords many times in songs - and suspected that it was a "minor key", because it sounds 'sad' rather than 'happy'. But I had no idea what exactly made it a "minor key". It wasn't just because Am is in there, because I know you can play Am with C, F and G and it sounds 'happier'.

One day - it would be nice to learn about scales and chords and stuff and how this all works. I am an engineer after all, and this sort of stuff does appeal to my technical side. It's all just physics.

The cheat: use the relative minor. If you are playing a song in C major but want a minor feel then use the same chords, but start (or focus on, make the central chord be) on A minor. This works for any major to minor transition (and it's easy that way.) Down three frets, notes, semitones. G major chords but start (or focus on) the E minor and you'll have a minor feel.

Again this isn't exact, but it's close enough for non theory folks to get an easy way to get started.


Obviously, there are also lots of other interesting (more interesting) ways to do this. But the cheat will get you the right feel. So if you are in C major but want to play in C minor, just play the D# major scale, but focus on the C minor and you'll be able to play with it.

And good luck.


For the record, I originally read the challenge as a section that moves from major to minor (or minor to major) that would repeat at least once.

Caravan ray - when playing in A minor, usually you would still use an E major chord, not e minor, it has to do with it being the "dominant." Trust me. A good example of an A minor song is House of the Rising Sun, which uses E major.

I'm polishing my fart in hopes that it might one day be a turd.

Lunkhead- thank you for all the info you posted about keys, and the link to that page. It is really helpful. I have been trying to teach myself music theory for around 3 years, and have lots of notes in a notebook just for it, but my brain is made of Teflon- everything falls out easily.

Got a couple questions for you all-
1. If you get eliminated in an early round can you still submit "shadow" songs just for the fun of it, but not in competition, and in hopes of getting feedback?
2. How do you tend to write your songs? Create a tune first, then lyrics, or the other way around? I will often think of a melody I already know that fits a line of lyrics which comes to me, and use that to build my lyrics on; then I go back and create a new tune for the words. Sometimes I will just do lyrics first and try to get a tune going in my head to match them. For some reason, walking my dog while thinking about a challenge helps me get a beat pattern in my head to build everything on.

Thanks!

Calliopeva:
Got a couple questions for you all-
1. If you get eliminated in an early round can you still submit "shadow" songs just for the fun of it, but not in competition, and in hopes of getting feedback?
2. How do you tend to write your songs? Create a tune first, then lyrics, or the other way around? I will often think of a melody I already know that fits a line of lyrics which comes to me, and use that to build my lyrics on; then I go back and create a new tune for the words. Sometimes I will just do lyrics first and try to get a tune going in my head to match them. For some reason, walking my dog while thinking about a challenge helps me get a beat pattern in my head to build everything on.

1 - Last year was opened a thread in this forum: "Nein VIII", with the same purpose of your proposal.

2 - In my particular case, there's no a constant way to do. Each song comes from different places. Sometimes is a riff, sometimes a melody, an idea about lyrics... In a Nur Ein situation there's an advantage, because either the title or the challenge can suggest a path to follow.