The Song Fight Bulletin Board

Posted: **Sun Apr 24, 2005 2:59 pm**

john m wrote:
Either you're trying to convince me of a point I already made, or you're talking to Sparks.

I was more venting in reponse to your ideas and how they made me feel, rather than trying to convince you in particular... it wasn't a personal attack rant (I am aware it reads that way though) ...basically, I figure we 'd have less apathy and all that if people just started, one at a time, to shift the belief in the commerical aspect of things to more important perspectives.

One at a time.

Posted: **Sun Apr 24, 2005 6:11 pm**

roymond wrote: *** Warning : this isn't supposed to be nice ***

No, butts on the ground just sit there as proof of what disgusting idiots people who throw them on the ground are. Not only are they either ignorant or helpless about what smoking does to them and us, but their butts say "I don't care about the place I live. I love having trash about my feet as much as I do within my body. The butts litering the ground around me respresent the attitudes I have about my life in general." This has little to do with environmentalism.

*** Now I return to the tolerant fool I normally pretend to be ***

Nice? No. Silly and rather stupid, certainly. But everyone's entitled to their stupid opinion.

I don't give a damn if there's a piece of cotton lying on the ground for a month in the street, thanks--and if you do, I suggest you may be obsessing over triviality. But I appreciate your right to enforce (in vain) your own choices on others. After all, wouldn't the world be more perfect if everyone acted exactly as we do?

But you did miss my point. Litter worries -are- vanity. Dog shit, human ash, paper waste and cigarette butts are imaginary environmental risks stemming more from human psychological flaws than from actual logical concerns. They're a visual obstacle, and only then for a very limited period. The world isn't supposed to be orderly, bub. It's just not made for the job.

But I'm glad you took the moment to illustrate my point by serving as an example.

Posted: **Sun Apr 24, 2005 6:23 pm**

Future Boy wrote:
sparks wrote: Cigarette butts aren't out there running a risk of making the planet unlivable in the distant future, they just look out of place for two or three weeks until they disintegrate.
Ahem, 2 or 3 weeks? How about this (from here):

"So what's wrong with tossing out a cigarette butt? It makes them just GO AWAY, plain and simple, right? WRONG! Did you know that cigarette filters are made of cellulose acetate, which persists up to ten years in the environment, far longer than it takes to destroy the internal processes of the creatures that ingest them mistakenly as food."

Just because something's synthetic doesn't make it indestructible. Cellulose acetate is actually biodegradable, and can composted. Chemically speaking, it's a slow process--however, that degredation usually occurs after the filter has disintegrated from environmental wear. On the microscopic level, in other words. Snowfall would actually -delay- environmental wear (like wind, foot and vehicle traffic), so I'm not sure what your point about the snowfall was. When you see a cigarette butt in the street, it's probably only been there a few weeks. That's why you don't see millions upon millions upon millions of them, as you would if they lasted virtually forever, as you seem to imply.

It's also a pretty neutral chemical. A bird hungry enough to eat something that smells nothing like food will probably suffer some ill effects, but it's not exactly a very serious concern--so far, I haven't see the streets flooded with dead pigeons, and I don't think it's been a major issue in the fifty-odd years filters were introduced.

If cigarette butts didn't just "GO AWAY" (which you seem to think I've said with some kind of naive, magical tone) anyone living in a city would see, as I said, more cigarette butts than we can count. In fact, we'd be dealing with them in such numbers that they -would- be a valid concern. However, you look at a busy street in a major metropolitan city and see at the very most a hundred or two at a time, even with heavy (smoking) pedestrian traffic. Why is that, do you think?

It is, however, very discourteous to leave your butts in someone's yard. I'd like to thank everyone who assumed, for the purposes of the argument, that I proposed it fine to leave your refuse in yards, public places, mailboxes, baby carriages...

Really, people, my point is that there's a difference between valid environmental concern and a concern for the visual beauty of an area. You don't leave cigarette butts where they shouldn't be for the same reason you don't leave your spare newspapers there. Sure, they'll both be rendered down to microscopic fiber within the course of a few months, but they're not pretty to look at in the meanwhile.

As for the chemical concerns, are you aware that the poisonous chemicals in burnt tobacco and tobacco smoke are common to burning vegetable matter as a whole? Do you realize that a naturally occurring (even fully necessary) forest fire produces thousands of these poisonous carcinogens in immeasurable quantity? Does no one have any concept of perspective whatsoever?

If you're looking for an objective, scientific source, the New York Whale and Dolphin Action League article you chose is probably not the best choice. The last scientific journal I saw didn't resort to caps lock and multiple exclamation points in its statements, and I question the intelligence of anyone who seriously respects an article that would. It's fluff, just like the argument it presents.

All that said? Smoking's bad for you. Don't do it. Unless you want to. Thanks.

Edit: My apologies--apparently that article was originally from a bi-weekly community college newsletter. I retract all derogatory statements made about its validity as a respectable source of reference.

Posted: **Sun Apr 24, 2005 7:09 pm**

Future Boy wrote:
sparks wrote: Cigarette butts aren't out there running a risk of making the planet unlivable in the distant future, they just look out of place for two or three weeks until they disintegrate.
Ahem, 2 or 3 weeks? How about this (from here):

"So what's wrong with tossing out a cigarette butt? It makes them just GO AWAY, plain and simple, right? WRONG! Did you know that cigarette filters are made of cellulose acetate, which persists up to ten years in the environment, far longer than it takes to destroy the internal processes of the creatures that ingest them mistakenly as food."

I can tell you, all of the cigarette butts that were tossed in the snow this winter did not disintegrate in 2 or 3 weeks. They were still there when the snow melted. And then washed away with the rain, to god knows where.

*and now for something completely unrelated to litter*

I'd like to see the day when cars are illegal in big cities and more comprehensive public transport is installed (metros, buses with water for exhaust). There are really just too damn many cars about.

Also, it might not be so bad to have neighborhood incinerators so that people had to be responsible for the disposal of their own trash and see how much some things stink and/or never go away. Maybe it would change people's consuming habits if all of their trash had to stay in their own backyard.

a great big amen to everything you said in this post. Cigarette butts are a pet peeve of mine. I also agree %110 on the automobiles in the city subject. And even my own trash...ONE GUY who lives alone..it's simply amazing how many bags of trash I can come up with in three days time. I have no incentive to change any of my habits.

Also sparks...Cities have cleaning units that clean the streets and sidewalks...look into it.

Posted: **Sun Apr 24, 2005 10:55 pm**

Some do, some don't. And real cities aside, there are "cities" that absolutely do not--small cities, that is, but ones with a downtown area and foot traffic. I'm not just talking about NYC, after all.

And then you've got sidewalks to consider. Most cities don't have a cleaning service for the sidewalks, other than to remove big obstacles.

But I'm sure I'll "look into it". I always get a good read out of http://www.citiesthathavestreetcleaning ... ebutts.com. Highly informational. Thanks for your always-refreshing addition of general knowledge, of course.

You'd think from your reply that was the only point I'd made in the entire post.

I know, I know, it's a waste of my time...

Seriously, though, people, we KNOW that smoking is "bad" (because of course, lofty moral judgements should always be enforced upon inanimate objects, casual activities, and other things that have no right to associated with the words good or bad). However, let's look at this another way:

Given: Pickles are bad. They smell. Everybody hates them, 'cept for people that like pickles. Turns out they give you cancer after 30 years of heavy pickle intake.

Arbitrary supposition, neither necessarily right nor wrong: Pickle stems NEVER disappear.

Most popular line of reasoning: IF pickles are [Bad], then [Bad Thing About Pickles] is assumed true.

Eureka! Lazy thinking solves our problems so much faster.

Posted: **Mon Apr 25, 2005 12:05 am**

At least you're humorous. Thanks for that. And a fun musician. Are you in this week or what?

Posted: **Mon Apr 25, 2005 5:36 am**

You can tell roymond has a kid or two.

Posted: **Mon Apr 25, 2005 6:59 am**

sparks wrote:whole lot of crap about cigarette butts.

Not quite sure what type of city you live in and what type of civil engineering expertise your people may have - but where I live, we have stormwater systems - and cigarette butts flow down gutters and accumulate in creeks and/or the Pacific Ocean.

The people in the cities who smoke them and drop them may think they "go away" - but they don't - they just go somewhere else. A few cigarette butts on a city steet isn't a problem - tens of thousands of cigarette butts in a creek is.

Posted: **Mon Apr 25, 2005 11:40 am**

sparks wrote:1. And then you've got sidewalks to consider. Most cities don't have a cleaning service for the sidewalks, other than to remove big obstacles.

2. But I'm sure I'll "look into it". I always get a good read out of http://www.citiesthathavestreetcleaning ... ebutts.com. Highly informational. Thanks for your always-refreshing addition of general knowledge, of course. You'd think from your reply that was the only point I'd made in the entire post.

3. Given: Pickles are bad. They smell. Everybody hates them, 'cept for people that like pickles. Turns out they give you cancer after 30 years of heavy pickle intake.

Arbitrary supposition, neither necessarily right nor wrong: Pickle stems NEVER disappear.

Most popular line of reasoning: IF pickles are [Bad], then [Bad Thing About Pickles] is assumed true.

Eureka! Lazy thinking solves our problems so much faster.

1. This tells me that you don't know what the hell you are talking about.

2. No, you are only insuating that. It is not true. You're bein' a jerk. You're NOT a jerk, but you are being one.

3. More proof you don't know what you're talking about. Bad anaology at that.

4. What caravan ray said. Whats worse, here and in the whole Tampabay area there are drains that are specifically labeled 'drains into bay' in hopes that people will realize that if they litter it will end up in a body of water that has to be drudged by the cities every once and a while so that fisherman can catch healthy fish.

Stick with your original argument...the holiday is pretty pointless. Cigarette butt defending isn't your specialty.

Posted: **Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:07 pm**

I'm serious, though. Not all cigarette butts get swept away into the drainage system. There are plenty of spots (sidewalks, et cetera) that simply wouldn't be affected--and in B'more, I swear to god, I have seen the same McD wrapper on the side of the road for a full year. We don't have the money for street/sidewalk cleaning services, especially not out this far. Not every city is its downtown area.

Cigarette butts are pretty flimsy. Take one apart yourself.

I think I'm making a fine point here. Obviously, not every cigarette butt that disappears is either picked up by your friendly neighborhood litter freak or swept away to be eaten by innocent dolphins. There are a healthy proportion that are simply destroyed by their environment, and not within an unusual period of time. That's all I meant to say.

I am not going to pretend these are Mother Nature's favorite things in the whole wide world, folks, but my original point was to try to bring the tiniest bit of perspective to pseudoenvironmentalism, which is known for having anything but.

Posted: **Sun Jun 26, 2005 10:29 am**

Yeah I like Jimmy Carter, he tried to start something good. Its not his fault if E-day went to shit at least.

Posted: **Sun Jun 26, 2005 9:07 pm**

Ahh, two-month old topics...

Posted: **Sun Jun 26, 2005 10:02 pm**

My birthday is April 22.

Posted: **Fri Jul 08, 2005 7:46 am**

Happy Birthday!

Posted: **Fri Jul 08, 2005 8:29 am**

sparks wrote:Obviously, not every cigarette butt that disappears is either picked up by your friendly neighborhood litter freak or swept away to be eaten by innocent dolphins. There are a healthy proportion that are simply destroyed by their environment, and not within an unusual period of time. That's all I meant to say.

nothing is "destroyed by their environment" - things you don't see anymore become unwanted nutrients in downstream water bodies. Some people (like me) actually make whole careers out of measuring and planning to minimise these types of things.

Posted: **Fri Jul 08, 2005 9:05 am**

It's all "natural". Nothing new comes from nothing. All the elements exist in some form, even if only as base ingredients. Astroids will eventually do us in and our legacy will be but a spot in the cosmic timeline. If that. We can't do any worse than the inevitable cataclysmic apocalypse which awaits us. So why bother?

Posted: **Fri Jul 08, 2005 11:24 am**

Cigarette butts for everyone! Whee!

Posted: **Fri Jul 08, 2005 1:21 pm**

Dan-O from Five-O wrote:Question: Is Earth Day entirely ineffectual?

Answer: Yes

Reason: people love to fuck

Posted: **Fri Jul 29, 2005 5:41 pm**

blue wrote:
Dan-O from Five-O wrote:Question: Is Earth Day entirely ineffectual?

Answer: Yes

Reason: people love to fuck

Ah, the newer improved version of my post.

Posted: **Fri Jul 29, 2005 8:03 pm**

Let this topic die?

Posted: **Sat Jul 30, 2005 12:08 am**

john m wrote:Let this topic die?

Like the Earth?

Posted: **Sun Aug 14, 2005 4:22 pm**

sparks wrote:And then you've got sidewalks to consider. Most cities don't have a cleaning service for the sidewalks, other than to remove big obstacles.

Rain and pedestrian traffic will clear sidewalks of cigarette butt debris. They wind up either in the streets or down drains.

The Song Fight Bulletin Board

Is Earthday entirely ineffectual?