OK, we know who won (or: Does God exist?)

[Leaf]

And all is better again in the songfight continium....


yea!

[c hack]

Morals and ethics. I took an interesting course on this subject in college. I remember getting nailed to the prvberbial cross when the prof asked "tell me one thing you've ever done for someone else and not for yourself". There isn't one fucking way to beat that question, because in the end, you always choose to do something because you want to.

You could also say that you never do anything for yourself.

uhhh... no... that would be the opposite of what I just said.

Leaf, the reason the argument your professor made holds water is there's no separation between self and other. Everything you do for someone else you're also doing for yourself b/c you are them and they are you.

Born agains... "Oh, all you Catholics pray on beads to saints and have those little statues of Jesus's mom in your yards... you're really just PAGANS."

Yeah, these are the kind of people that were busy stoning Mary Magdalene when Jesus showed up and told them to fuck off.

Anyhow, I was saying that I've since joined up with the Unitarians who don't argue that Hell truely exists, nevermind whether or not I'm going there. They just say "Hey! You're on your own spiritual journey... good for you! So are we. Join one of our social action committees." and if you're Christian that's great or if you're interested in Buddism that's great too.

The problem I have with Unitarianism is it lacks rituals. I think there's a great benefit in a belief system, whichever one you choose. I also think it's good to learn more about all different religions -- I can understand going to a Buddhist church one day, and a Christian church the next, but a non-denominational church seems to be kinda missing the point to me.

(not trying to knock Unitarianism, of course -- respect all around -- just thinking out loud and hoping I'm not offending)

[Hoblit]

There is a huge difference in the way Catholics practice religion that is distinctly different in many ways to any demonation of PROTESTANT religions.

Huge? Really? Such as... The differences AMONG the protestant religions is as big or bigger than differences they have with Catholics.

yeah true... but I'm not really arguing THAT...in fact, I'm not arguing at all. Just backpeddling really... I seem to have started a whole other debate.

By huge differences...I'm only making note of how ornate Catholisism is generally..it's clergy structure..., nuns, it's 'confessional' type stuff. I'm certainly not isolating those things to poke at them or anything. I'm sure other christian type religions have their own things that make them significantly different than a good ole southern baptist. I had a boss who was Catholic...nices guy I've ever met...we got along famously. Also, Catholics have the best churhches! *SMILEY*

[Leaf]

Leaf, the reason the argument your professor made holds water is there's no separation between self and other. Everything you do for someone else you're also doing for yourself b/c you are them and they are you.

This is gonna be another one of those situations where people think you're joking after I rabidly pummel you with sarcasm.

and then you say you aren't.

"You are them and they are you?"

bullshit.

That is cerebral posturing. There is no fact in that statement, and I am really curious if you have been possessed by the lizard people.

Seriously, what theory or fact are you evoking in your "point"?


love,

Confused Canadian. (But you already knew that cause you are me... p.s. what colour underwear am I wearing?)

[Hoblit]

Ok, sorry Hoblit, I was immediately insulted because I thought you were being one of those people that attack us Catholics saying that we're not Christians.

I've just come under a bit of persecution because of my religion.

Hope we can be friends, Mr Hoblit.

If someone on a public board seemed to be attacking things you hold dear, would you not comment on it?

-bill

dude, I wouldnt' even know how to hold a grudge. And I understood immediately what you thought when you replied. Thats why I quickly cleared it up. I'm not in the habit of attacking other people's religion. IN FACT, I'm just glad they believe at all.

[erik]

OMG*WTFYOUAREMEANTOATHIESTSBBQ






*goodness

[starfinger]

The Catholic church's focus on ritual and the elaborate priest hierarchy makes them significantly different than most Protestant denominations in many ways. A lot of these differences are more than just "points of order". They emphasize such different aspects of the faith that they could easily seem like different religions .

For example, the concept that priests are needed to mediate between man and God, or that Saints should be prayed to could be considered sacriligeous by some fundamentalist protestants.


-craig

[Leaf]

Catholic school girls are hot. And I'm not just saying that cause of the song. We had a Catholic school in the city I grew up in... and the ugliest sow was hot in one of those uniforms.


Yummy.

[starfinger]

Word.

[Adam!]

If someone on a public board seemed to be attacking things you hold dear, would you not comment on it?

I would respond in a heartbeat. I knew you had good intentions Bill, so read my response with a hint of sarcasm (maybe Bortwein can design us a better sarcasm smiley. I probably should have used one of your patent-pending reverse smilies). I certainly didn't mean to come off as telling anyone to shut up. When someone puts their foot in their mouth I just like to push it in a little farther.

[c hack]

That is cerebral posturing. There is no fact in that statement, and I am really curious if you have been possessed by the lizard people.

Haha, no, I'm totally serious. Buddhism, Daoism, Zen, mostly, and quantum science. I think Christians might believe it too but I don't know.

One bodhisattva (no way I remember his name (edit: i googled and it might be amitayu, but I'll have to check for sure)) became enlightened and died and was about to enter Nirvana but declined, saying it was more important to him that all beings attain enlightenment, so he created a lake between worlds (sort of like purgatory, I think) where if you prayed to him, you would go when you died if you weren't enlightened already. One feature of this lake is the endless intonation of everything there saying "All is impermanent, all is without a self."

Another thing the Zen guys (and probably all Buddhists) have been saying for quite some time is "Form is nothingness; nothingness form." This has of course been proven true by quantum science. Think about it -- an atom is nearly all empty space, with a small nucleus and electron clouds around it. These quantum particles aren't solid -- they're electrical charges. So an atom is empty space with some electrical charges. A molecule is a combination of atoms, and put enough together and you get people. But no matter how much empty space + electrical charges you put together, it's not gonna equal a physical object. Then how come we're physical objects? Because that's just the way we perceive groups of tightly attracted atoms.

At least, the way I understand it.

I'm not exactly sure how the science jives with the religious aspects, but ask any enlightened person and he'll tell you: we're all just waves on one ocean.

(But you already knew that cause you are me... p.s. what colour underwear am I wearing?)

Wait, let me check.

*thinks hard*

Ewww!

[Leaf]

When someone puts their foot in their mouth I just like to push it in a little farther.

Yet another thing we have in common... cept It's not a foot.

I'm not exactly sure how the science jives with the religious aspects, but ask any enlightened person and he'll tell you: we're all just waves on one ocean.

Ok... I get ya, the whole universal light, splinters of the mind thing. I actually totally get off on that theory myself, except it's a little obtuse in the context of the whole "my prof fucked me over and won" story.

But I get ya.


Oh... trick question. I took them off.

[Adam!]

This has of course been proven true by quantum science. Think about it -- an atom is nearly all empty space, with a small nucleus and electron clouds around it. These quantum particles aren't solid -- they're electrical charges. So an atom is empty space with some electrical charges. A molecule is a combination of atoms, and put enough together and you get people. But no matter how much empty space + electrical charges you put together, it's not gonna equal a physical object.

Rage... slowly... building...

Anyway, back on topic: What's everyone going to do now the GW is 'The Man' (again)? Anyone got any post-election plans/suicides?

[Henrietta]

The problem I have with Unitarianism is it lacks rituals.

That does take some getting used to, especially after growing up devoutly Catholic. But since the principles and ideals of the Unitarian 'religion' involve supporting my own spiritual growth rather than telling me exactly what I should believe, it's easy for me to be a devout follower.

I just think it's neat because for the first time in my adult life I actually enjoy "going to church". (I'm under the impression that every Unitarian congregation is somewhat different, though, so I don't know if they're all as cool as mine. )

[c hack]

This has of course been proven true by quantum science. Think about it -- an atom is nearly all empty space, with a small nucleus and electron clouds around it. These quantum particles aren't solid -- they're electrical charges. So an atom is empty space with some electrical charges. A molecule is a combination of atoms, and put enough together and you get people. But no matter how much empty space + electrical charges you put together, it's not gonna equal a physical object.

Rage... slowly... building...

Okay, where did I fuck up?

I just think it's neat because for the first time in my adult life I actually enjoy "going to church".

That right there is worth its weight in gold. I thought about joining a russian orthodox church (my name is slavik after all) after I went to a funeral at one and the service was amazing; I really enjoyed it. I still want to, but I can't seem to break my habit of sleeping in on Sundays. Might have something to do with my habit of sleeping in every day...

[Henrietta]

Anyway, back on topic: What's everyone going to do now the GW is 'The Man' (again)?

I'm going to start answering my telephone again! Yay! No more phone calls reminding me to vote, warning me about candidates, threatening me with terrorism, or pleading for donations. True freedom has arrived!

[Justincombustion]

http://worldofwonder.net/images/JESUSLAND.JPG

It's the map of New America.

[HeuristicsInc]

Oh... trick question. I took them off.

I knew that.
c hack must be right.

Henrietta: all Unitarian congregations I've gone to have been loads of fun. That's three, I think. One of them particularly was very inspiring. I think there's lots to learn from different religions.
-bill

[c hack]

I can't imagine any church being more fun than a Black Baptist church down south in the first half of the century. Alan Lomax talks about attending services one Sunday (in The Land Where the Blues Began), and he describes it like it was a religious experience. Which, of course, is what it should be.

[Adam!]

Okay, where did I fuck up?

There are just a few really minor mistakes in there (the bosons and leptons you mentioned all have rest mass, so they actually are solid and have a small weight), but that's very forgivable. What raised my hackles is "quantum theory proves...". I see this all the time, as well as "string theory proves" and "the theory of multiple-universes proves". The problem is that these are all just theories, widely acknowledged within the scientific community as bad (unparsimonious) ones at that. A lot of these contested theories (or even recently disproved theories; See Gravity) are presented as fact, making the universe seem like a confusing and magical place. Most atheists passionately believe and defend these, frankly, bizarre theories, while ridiculing others because of their own faiths. Pet peeve.

So yeah, I should have explained that.

[c hack]

What raised my hackles is "quantum theory proves...".

Yeah, I agree -- I don't even come close to understanding shit like string theory, and most quantum theory is still theory. That's why I said "quantum science." Being, the study of really really small stuff. Crazy theory stuff aside, the concept of the structure of an atom isn't a whole lot different from what Bohr said in what, 1915? I mean, different enough so that I'm annoyed that they still teach it in high school, but the basic setup is the same -- tiny bit of mass in the middle, negative charges in clouds around it, etc.

So I maintian that it at least sorta proves my point. Or rather, the Buddhists' point.

[j$]

However, religions generally teach good morals that even non religious folk would have to agree.

Yeah most religions teach some good lessons. For example the lessons of the New Testament taken out of context (which is the wrong phrasing I appreciate) are great life lessons. But the problem being you can't take it out of context. you can't just choose the bits that suit you. It goes both ways - which is why I can't understand Gay Christians. If you choose to read the Bible as a Spiritual directive, you can't just unwrite the Old Testament because you don't like what Leviticus has to say.

I saw a poll recently where voters ranked "morality" as a most important factor in voting, above the war on terror or the economy. Wow.

Yeah, I saw that poll. I guess my take on it, is it's slightly twisted in that there were only four choices (moral values, economy, iraw, terrorism) and 'moral values' is such woolly phraseology that it ends up being teh catch-all option. Either that or Republican spin is even more effective than we give it 'credit' for.