PRESIDENTIAL DEBATES

[Sober]

I disagree on the choice and have already stated why I don't like Joe Biden and why I think he is a bad choice.

Aside from saying that he's 'Hollywood' and 'corporate,' no you didn't. You've only provided vague, unprovable reasons. Erik was much more diplomatic than I, but I'd really like to know what about Biden you dislike that isn't based on a gut feeling or his cheesy smile.

http://www.ontheissues.org/senate/joe_biden.htm

A quick perusal of that page should be helpful, it's a great resource in general.

I've always been interested in the libertarian party, but many of Bob Barr's social stances really turn me off. He authored the marriage defense act, he wants prayer in schools, and to me has an unsatisfactory record on abortion.

Here's Barr's 4-way plot:



And here's Biden's:



I'll stick with candidate identification before party identification. For reference, this is me:

[Caravan Ray]

I've never been a big fan of American sitcoms - but I've got to hand it to you...your elections are hilarious!!!!!

Now this Miss Alaska girlie - every news story about her I've seen says she is "pro life and pro gun"! Ok - I know that is American political jargon, but the oxymoronicness of it is beautiful! But the funniest bit - they say she is "anti sex education in schools" - but now one of her teenage sprogs is up the duff!!!!!

Seriously - a comedian couldn't write this stuff!

[Hoblit]

Actually Sober, I did include one reason via a link previously. Please stop attacking me. Its not like I'm blindly forming opinions. I do actually have reasons outside of my 'gut'. I'm not being insulting to you but you feel its ok to say things like 'your bigotry is showing' and the like. You could give me the benefit of the doubt and be more polite. Just ask, don't accuse.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/cnet/20080824/t ... 1002416338

The above link is one of the reasons I don't trust Biden. I do not believe that in itself cancels out all of his other qualities, but it makes a dent. I really want to leave it at that. I don't want to have to write up a full 500 page report on 'why I don't like Biden' just to prove to you that I have something other than a 'gut' feeling.

[Sober]

Yeah, I was in a pretty foul mood yesterday, as I'd just gotten home from my Dad's house (he's in the 26% of Bush supporters). I definitely got out of line, and I apologize. I think my post was aimed more at my dad than you (go cry, emo Sober).

Every candidate is going to have a couple issues that don't sit well, and when you've been casting votes on the senate floor for 35 years, you're going to piss some people off. Obama supports civil unions, but won't call it 'gay marriage.' I call that separate but equal, and firmly disagree with anything but full equality under federal law. He's still a net positive for me, though, and I feel the same with Biden. I disagree with him on a lot more than Obama, but looking at the net gain of having him on the ticket and in office makes me very comfortable. I can see how one might anticipate Barr's new party affiliation reigning him in on a number of issues and making him a net positive.

And Caravan Ray - she's against sex education, but more specifically is for abstinence-only education (and creationism). How's that abstinence-only action working out for you, Mrs. Palin? Want to keep forcing your broken, ineffective morals down other people's throats? You really want to legislate your demonstrably failed morality? DO YOU?

People who want to inject religion or any kind of morality into public schools are the sickest of people, who've never read the constitution and don't understand what America stands for. They are either extremely ignorant, or extremely unpatriotic.

[melvin]

People who want to inject religion or any kind of morality into public schools are the sickest of people, who've never read the constitution and don't understand what America stands for. They are either extremely ignorant, or extremely unpatriotic.

I agree – these moralizing sickos are trying to brainwash our children by encouraging them to finish school, get married and raise healthy children. What good does that do for society? Especially when antibiotics, distance learning, abortions, and welfare make so many other more liberal life choices surprisingly practical for today’s teens.

[Hoblit]

People who want to inject religion or any kind of morality into public schools are the sickest of people, who've never read the constitution and don't understand what America stands for. They are either extremely ignorant, or extremely unpatriotic.

I agree – these moralizing sickos are trying to brainwash our children by encouraging them to finish school, get married and raise healthy children. What good does that do for society? Especially when antibiotics, distance learning, abortions, and welfare make so many other more liberal life choices surprisingly practical for today’s teens.

Bold words in retaliation to a bold statement.

I'd not go there personally. However, I will remind Sober that this country was founded by Christian men. Their separation of church and state proposals were all based on previous religious oppression. I agree with their decision in that matter even as a Christian myself. However, one might argue that they only referred to the separation of church and state as for the freed of religion not to impose itself as rule. In other words, they were more interested in keeping it from an oppressive atmosphere, not to necessarily banish it completely. Of course that is just my own opinion and it is pretty obviously speculative.

But the word God is as part of America as anything else. With that being implemented on our money, the pledge or allegiance and wherever else it is, could be translated into brainwashing to. I don't think that was anybody's intention. America has always had its problems but we used to be considered the 'good guys' and that's at least partly because of an understood morality that was shared across a pre-dominantly Christian country.

[erik]

People who want to inject religion or any kind of morality into public schools are the sickest of people, who've never read the constitution and don't understand what America stands for. They are either extremely ignorant, or extremely unpatriotic.

I agree – these moralizing sickos are trying to brainwash our children by encouraging them to finish school, get married and raise healthy children. What good does that do for society? Especially when antibiotics, distance learning, abortions, and welfare make so many other more liberal life choices surprisingly practical for today’s teens.

hahahahahhahha awesome

More, please. I never tire of the whole "Liberals are like this, and conservatives are like THIS" nonsense.

The most baddest-ass teachers I've had the honor of working alongside were able to encourage students to finish school, encourage them to go to college, encourage them to stay out of gangs and to not get pregnant, encourage them to do all kinds of stuff that made them (or will make them) awesome members of society without ever mentioning religion or morality.

Why finish school? Why go to college? Why etc etc etc? Because it increases your chances for a better life, and it makes society as a whole a better place. Religion and morality are not the only way to get that message across.

[roymond]

But the word God is as part of America as anything else. With that being implemented on our money, the pledge or allegiance and wherever else it is, could be translated into brainwashing to.

"In God We Trust" wasn't added to US money until the Civil War era. Many other overt references added only during the 50s (well, as an official slogan). May come from the Star-Spangled Banner written in 1814.

It appeared on state flags and license plates only during the last 8 years...go figure!

As for the founding fathers, Jefferson, Franklin and Adams were pretty liberal Christians in as far as they openly questioned the existence of a god in their correspondences, and often in a cover-your-ass manner. The banter in this regard between Jefferson and Adams in their letters is quite entertaining.

[Sober]

I will remind Sober that this country was founded by Christian men.

...

But the word God is as part of America as anything else. With that being implemented on our money, the pledge or allegiance and wherever else it is, could be translated into brainwashing to. I don't think that was anybody's intention.

The founding fathers were also slave owners. How christian. At any rate, they were by and large deists, at best. But their faith and personal/political ideologies are pretty irrelevant, because the documents they forged this nation upon were intended to protect the population from individuals with radical views either way.

The words 'under god' weren't added to the pledge until 1951. Roymond covered the rest pretty well.

I agree – these moralizing sickos are trying to brainwash our children by encouraging them to finish school, get married and raise healthy children. What good does that do for society? Especially when antibiotics, distance learning, abortions, and welfare make so many other more liberal life choices surprisingly practical for today’s teens.

The idea that religion has a monopoly on morality is ridiculous. Do you really think that - because you follow a 2000 year-old book that dictates death for kidnapping, disrespecting your parents, blasphemy, not observing the sabbath, fornicating, and apostasy to name a few - that you are more capable of raising "healthier" children? How will those kids benefit from a belief that the world is 5000 years old?

At any rate, my argument isn't that someone is bad because they're christian - that's obviously absurd. My argument is that forcing your personal beliefs upon other people who have just as much right to these public services is compeltely terrible. If a large Hindu population moved into your school district and took over the school board, you'd be clamoring for the state and federal governments to keep them from teaching your kids Hindu values.

You are completely free to do whatever you want as far as indoctrinating your kids goes. If you want your kid to be further indoctrinated, you are free to send them to a private school. Leave public schools to the teaching of facts, uncolored by faith.

While you're at it, teach them that germ theory is just a theory, so they should stop washing their hands. Oh, same with gravity. Just a theory. And the earth is the center of the universe, and also flat. Silly scientists and their theories.

Just curious, wtf do antibiotics and distance learning have to do with anything? Are you saying that antibiotics are a liberal evil?

[Hoblit]

But the word God is as part of America as anything else. With that being implemented on our money, the pledge or allegiance and wherever else it is, could be translated into brainwashing to.

"In God We Trust" wasn't added to US money until the Civil War era. Many other overt references added only during the 50s (well, as an official slogan). May come from the Star-Spangled Banner written in 1814.

It appeared on state flags and license plates only during the last 8 years...go figure!

As for the founding fathers, Jefferson, Franklin and Adams were pretty liberal Christians in as far as they openly questioned the existence of a god in their correspondences, and often in a cover-your-ass manner. The banter in this regard between Jefferson and Adams in their letters is quite entertaining.

Yeah, and the Pledge of Allegiance wasn't added until the 1850s but I was just un-equating religious and moral references as 'shoving it down throats'. I agree that there is some 'shoving down throats' going on, but I hardly think that moral teaching, even through religious means is as oppressive as some of us make it out to be.

[Sober]

Yeah, and the Pledge of Allegiance wasn't added until the 1850s but I was just un-equating religious and moral references as 'shoving it down throats'. I agree that there is some 'shoving down throats' going on, but I hardly think that moral teaching, even through religious means is as oppressive as some of us make it out to be.

Teaching creationism - in any disguise (I.D.) - was my main point. Also, teaching abstinence has been proven to be hopelessly ineffective in curbing teen pregnancies and std's. The right is all about abstinence-only, and have continued to beat their heads into a wall in the face of decades of refuting evidence. Obviously, the only basis for supporting abstinence-only comes from religion.

Obviously, no one benefits from kids screwing, protected or not. But if they are going to (they are), they ought to be equipped with the best knowledge and have the resources freely available to them to protect themselves. Oh, and not having crippling guilt about it for the rest of their lives would be good, too.

[Hoblit]

Yeah, and the Pledge of Allegiance wasn't added until the 1850s but I was just un-equating religious and moral references as 'shoving it down throats'. I agree that there is some 'shoving down throats' going on, but I hardly think that moral teaching, even through religious means is as oppressive as some of us make it out to be.

1. Teaching creationism - in any disguise (I.D.) - was my main point. Also, teaching abstinence has been proven to be hopelessly ineffective in curbing teen pregnancies and std's. The right is all about abstinence-only, and have continued to beat their heads into a wall in the face of decades of refuting evidence. Obviously, the only basis for supporting abstinence-only comes from religion.

2. Obviously, no one benefits from kids screwing, protected or not. But if they are going to (they are), they ought to be equipped with the best knowledge and have the resources freely available to them to protect themselves. Oh, and not having crippling guilt about it for the rest of their lives would be good, too.

1. I agree, I think Creationism should be taught on the weekends, at Church.

2. I also agree that abstinence-only is also ridiculous but kids should still be taught abstinence. Again, abstinence-only in Church. Abstinence and sex education in school.

These are points that we can agree on, that's for sure.

[Sober]

Enough hugging! Back on topic!

Fresh from the fark mainpage, here's a clip of live mics catching republican pundits (Peggy Noonan and Mike Murphy) admitting that the election is over. Bonus points for "political bullshit about narratives" from Peggy Noonan directed at the Palin pick.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dq4sOM4tpno

Full text, for those without sound:

Chuck Todd: Mike Murphy, lots of free advice, we'll see if Steve Schmidt and the boys were watching. We'll find out on your blackberry. Tonight voters will get their chance to hear from Sarah Palin and she will get the chance to show voters she's the right woman for the job Up next, one man who's already convinced and he'll us why Gov. Jon Huntsman.

(cut away)

Peggy Noonan: Yeah.

Mike Murphy: You know, because I come out of the blue swing state governor world: Engler, Whitman, Tommy Thompson, Mitt Romney, Jeb Bush. I mean, these guys -- this is how you win a Texas race, just run it up. And it's not gonna work. And --

PN: It's over.

MM: Still McCain can give a version of the Lieberman speech to do himself some good.

CT: I also think the Palin pick is insulting to Kay Bailey Hutchinson, too.

PN: Saw Kay this morning.

CT: Yeah, she's never looked comfortable about this --

MM: They're all bummed out.

CT: Yeah, I mean is she really the most qualified woman they could have turned to?

PN: The most qualified? No! I think they went for this -- excuse me-- political bullshit about narratives --

CT: Yeah they went to a narrative.

MM: I totally agree.

PN: Every time the Republicans do that, because that's not where they live and it's not what they're good at, they blow it.

MM: You know what's really the worst thing about it? The greatness of McCain is no cynicism, and this is cynical.

CT: This is cynical, and as you called it, gimmicky.

MM: Yeah.

I can't wait to quote myself calling it for Barack at the beginning of the primary season.

[roymond]

Obviously, no one benefits from kids screwing.

Is no one going to stand up for the kids here? My own disastrous experience aside, I'm guessing there are some good times being had.

[Caravan Ray]

Obviously, no one benefits from kids screwing.

Is no one going to stand up for the kids here? My own disastrous experience aside, I'm guessing there are some good times being had.

Yeah - and when they do it in front of highly skilled Dutch cinematographers who generously make their works available to anyone over 18 with a valid credit card and high-speed internet link - well, it's win, win, win!

[jimtyrrell]

Apparently we are doing God's will in Iraq. Welcome to the new Crusade.

[roymond]

Apparently we are doing God's will in Iraq. Welcome to the new Crusade.

I was giving her a lot of leeway until I saw that video. "But really all of that stuff doesn't do any good if the people of Alaska's heart isn't right with God."

[jb]

Not to mention that she's a mom with a new baby, a baby with Down Syndrome.
Oh and her daughter is 5 months pregnant.

Great time to decide to run for Vice President. I'm sure that were she elected (god forbid) she'd have all the time she needs to devote to her Special Needs child and her daughter's pregnancy, birth, and marriage to her also-17-year-old self-described "f***in' redneck" baby daddy.

What is *wrong* with this lady? I'd be angry at anyone who made these decisions at the expense of their children, but don't classic right-wing religious values require her on pain of damnation to take care of these people in her life at the expense of career ambitions?

Such a strange, scary person.

[Billy's Little Trip]

but don't classic right-wing religious values require her on pain of damnation to take care of these people in her life at the expense of career ambitions?

This is the best thing that the right-wing religious groups have right now. They are going to spin it in their direction and make anyone that disagrees, feel like anti family value demons. All they see is, pro life, family woman, mother, Christian, and a few other things that fit their agenda. So far, a lot of the women like her because she's a working mother with real family issues. The funny thing is, I haven't really heard much from the woman activists, like Gloria Allred, etc. They usually jump on the bandwagon right away.

[Sober]

Brilliant clip from last night's Daily show:

http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/index ... ender-card

Seriously, do these people not realize that video is archived? Do they think it won't come back to bite them in the ass? Fucking scum.

The Daily Show is the most important show on television.

[Billy's Little Trip]

I saw that too, and yes, I agree on the Daily Show and Cobert. It's unfuckingbelievable how these whores flip flop with no recollection of what they stood on their soap boxes about just a couple years ago. Don't they have advisers, publicists, PR?

[jb]

Well, I can think of a couple reasons why the political operatives keep behaving like this:

1. They're not used to having recordings be quite to quickly referred to when they're pontificating. So they haven't figured out an alternative tactic (like THE TRUTH) to simply saying whatever is most expedient at the time.

2. They're counting on much of AMERICA not watching closely enough to notice when they hypocratize like this. Unfortunately, a lot of the media has been trained not to explicitly refer to the past in a way that contrasts what someone is saying now with what they said then. Usually it's "contrary to past statements, Rove blahblahblah" which is a structure that factually informs but does not make the point strongly. A lot of reporting is designed to make us connect the dots for ourselves, and is purposely neutral when it comes to being as obvious as the Daily Show can be.

I think it's #2, personally. But #1 is entirely possible... maybe the just don't quite know what to do yet, so they keep doing what they did before.

I found the Daily Show clips to be absolutely disgusting, a disgust mitigated only by the fear that someone would find clips where people from the left are doing the same thing. They're out there, I'm sure of it. Jon Stewart just hasn't had a good reason to show them yet. If the left is in power, it will be Stewart's job (otherwise he'll be out of one as ratings will tank) to poke holes in it. The Daily Show is a humorous watchdog against whoEVER is in power.