OK, we know who won (or: Does God exist?)

starfinger · Post by **starfinger** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 12:48 pm

Puce wrote:If God knows, well, everything, including what will happen, where is the allowance for free will?

You can know how a movie ends without writing the screenplay.

-craig

HeuristicsInc · Post by **HeuristicsInc** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 12:51 pm

Here's the belief:
God, being outside of time, and therefore knowing what happens in all time, knows what you're going to do, without TELLING you what to do. You've got free will; just because God knows doesn't mean God forces.
Heh, Starfinger posts in metaphor what I try to say outright.
-bill

Leaf · Post by **Leaf** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 1:05 pm

The other thing is, why does there even have to be an answer? Like the whole end of the universe, or beginning of time thing, we desperately want answers to satisfy our desire for order and answers, but...why? Why do we assume that everything has an explanation?

MAybe there is no god, there is no afterlife, we just expire. Maybe it's the whole Thor/Odin thing. Does it even matter? Do we need religion and Gods to give us an absolute authority figure to prevent us from crumbling to every whim? Could I ask one more question?

erik · Post by **erik** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 1:12 pm

Puce wrote:If God knows, well, everything, including what will happen, where is the allowance for free will? It's basically just theological fatalism in a nutshell, but it always bothered me when I was young and impressionable. However, I am unfamiliar with most religions, so this argument may not even apply at all.

Maybe God doesn't know everything.

Hoblit · Post by **Hoblit** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 1:12 pm

Leaf wrote:The other thing is, why does there even have to be an answer? Could I ask one more question?

Well could ya?

I like your post... but it's human nature to be inquisitive...also...in my opinion... all of this comes together too well and that leads to something making it possible. (to me) It can't just be...even if there is no purpose in the end, even if it's a lab experiment gone all wrong... it can't just 'be'.

erik · Post by **erik** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 1:37 pm

c hack wrote:the thing is, waiting for an answer isn't gonna get you anywhere. You have to actually look for it to find it.

Yeah, but I'm perfectly satisfied with "I don't know" being my answer, so I don't really have any need to look for more definitive one.

Adam! · Post by **Adam!** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 1:37 pm

HeuristicsInc wrote:Here's the belief:
God... knows what you're going to do, without TELLING you what to do. You've got free will; just because God knows doesn't mean God forces.

But if God knows what you are going to do (by that I mean He knows the outcome of each individual decision) then that doesn't leave you with a choice. If you are free to choose something different than what God knows you are going to do then God is fallible.

I like Starfinger's (and 15-16's) definition, as in God knows the end but not the middle, and you have free control over how you choose to get there. Unfortunately this challenges the 'all-knowing' aspect of God. Again, I'm not familiar enough with most religions to know if the not-quite-all-knowing definition of God is a big deal or not.

Hobs: For me the Weak Anthropic principle applies here. Even if the chance of intelligent life developing in a solar system are 1 in 10-to-the-fuckload, with billions of galaxies with millions of planets it's a safe bet intelligence will arise somewhere. And when it does, like a lottery winner or a 9-11 victim, it will (collectively) ask "Why me? What were the chances of life evolving here?", to which the answer is "Well, it had to happen somewhere".

Leaf: Why all the debate, you ask? Look at my post count: I speak for myself when I say that I'm tired of being a 'blue baiter'. Bourgeois punk here I come!

HeuristicsInc · Post by **HeuristicsInc** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 1:49 pm

I don't think what Puce said in the first paragraph makes any sense. Am I wrong?
-bill

erik · Post by **erik** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 1:52 pm

Puce wrote:Again, I'm not familiar enough with most religions to know if the not-quite-all-knowing definition of God is a big deal or not.

Yeah, but the whole concept of "all-knowing" is really unfathomable, as is any "all-____________" power that can be assigned to God. Does God know that 2+2 = 5? Does God know that my name is Ron Turkleton? At some point, the language breaks down and fails to express the ideas behind it.

HeuristicsInc · Post by **HeuristicsInc** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 1:55 pm

For what it's worth I thought Starf was saying the same thing I was.
But he's not on the im, so I can't ask.
Now that I think about it it seems like we're not communicating well on the timeline issue. You are experiencing time "as it happens" and are making choices as you wish. You are free to choose something different, but He would know that you did. God can see all times because He's not subject to it like we are. Why are you assuming that knowing something causes it to happen? It's not causality.
What you're saying is like saying "I know this computer is in front of me, and my knowing it caused the computer to be there." Isn't it? That's a weird viewpoint.
-bill

Hoblit · Post by **Hoblit** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 2:01 pm

<i>Hobs: For me the Weak Anthropic principle applies here. Even if the chance of intelligent life developing in a solar system are 1 in 10-to-the-fuckload, with billions of galaxies with millions of planets it's a safe bet intelligence will arise somewhere. And when it does, like a lottery winner or a 9-11 victim, it will (collectively) ask "Why me? What were the chances of life evolving here?", to which the answer is "Well, it had to happen somewhere".
</i>

Right, but...so...how does this explain WHY the odds even exist in the first place? There is no definition of the beginning or the end. When did it start? Yes, ok...but what was here before it started? When will it end? Whats after that? IMO, these concepts are way to complicated for our feeble little human minds to comprehend. IMO, this feeble spec of a man has to believe that there is something at the controls. My little brain realizes that it can't wrap itself around that actual concept even if it were explained in great detail. This tiny little insignificant dust collection chooses to sum up that great power utilizing the hand book of life to guide him. To help him come to a reasonable understanding using stories, metaphors, and a good dose of general morality. *smiley*

starfinger · Post by **starfinger** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 2:12 pm

Change my metaphor to:

You can know every minute detail of a movie without writing the screenplay.

You are not free to choose something different than what God knows you are going to do, because God's knowlege already represents our final decision.

Our understanding of time is the source of confusion here. Consider the idea that we're sailing through reality in 4D space. God can look at the whole 4d continuum and see what decisions are made at every point.

-craig

Leaf · Post by **Leaf** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 2:33 pm

...or... the decisions you made yesterday are done, in a context of "time"...but free will is what lead you to them. Today's decisions are done tomorrow...

you get the drift.

erik · Post by **erik** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 2:51 pm

starfinger wrote:You are not free to choose something different than what God knows you are going to do, because God's knowlege already represents our final decision.

This is what strikes many people as a lack of free will. It seems that for every decision I have to make in my life, there is exactly one choice that will not be different from what God already knows will happen. Only being able to choose this one thing doesn't seem all that free.

Leaf · Post by **Leaf** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 2:58 pm

But god knowing what your choice is gonna be, as opposed to making it for you are two different things. It's like when your two year old reaches for the hot stove element, you can even say "don't do that" cause you know the outcome, and you can see that the curiousity is there to touch it, and you can even know they are gonna do it, or perhaps a better metaphor is watching an accident about to happen as a result of the choices made by a driver, anyway, this doesn't take away free will--you aren't being guided, or controlled. He knows, theoretically, doesn't mean he controls. Free will is the freedom to MAKE a choice, whether someone else with higher powers already knows what your gonna do or not isn't even relevant, it's another topic, the topic of what's the point of even bothering if I can't affect anything.. but once again, your choices do affect things. Perhaps in the know everything theory of God, it's just got a different temporal perspective, that's all....

look at me, amateur theologian.

starfinger · Post by **starfinger** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 3:06 pm

15-16 puzzle wrote:This is what strikes many people as a lack of free will.

It's not that God is enforcing his version of events, it's that you're not capable of faking him out by changing your mind at the last second.

-craig

Adam! · Post by **Adam!** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 3:14 pm

HeuristicsInc wrote:What you're saying is like saying "I know this computer is in front of me, and my knowing it caused the computer to be there." Isn't it? That's a weird viewpoint.

Bill: Not at all. I'm taking the reasonable viewpoint of propositional logic. If something is 'known' then it must be 'true'. If something is 'true' then it cannot be false (what a pointless statement!). In your example (assuming you are infallible) you know that the computer is in front of you. This necessitates that it is there; otherwise you are drawn into a logical contradiction. If you had amazing powers of foresight and accuracy and you 'knew' the computer will be there tomorrow, then that necessitates that it be there tomorrow, and no one has a choice in the matter. Of course, you or I do not have these powers, but God does.

If God 'knows' that I will post this message, then I will post this message. Classical freewill is the ability to make free choices; when it comes time to click the 'Submit' button I will hover my mouse over it, think "Well, maybe Bill's right, maybe I shouldn't post this. On the other hand, I'm so close to a hundred posts. That and I'm a compulsive debater. Alright, I'll post it.", and I will feel like I made the decision. But if He knows that I will post it (and by Starfinger's definition he should), then I can't really decide not to. That's fatalism, and the only arguments I've heard against it all impose limits on God (like He can't see the future, or he doesn't know what we are thinking, etc...).

Hoblit: Your right, the anthropic principles only apply if you assume the universe must exist in the first place. Science doesn't have a good answer for that one, although a mediocre answer is that time doesn't exist without matter, so the answer to "What Came Before the Beginning" is "Nothing". Unfortunately this just leaves us with more questions, like "Why/How did the universe start existing", and "Who do you think your fooling?”. Also, you make the bible sound totally awesome.

Erik: Descartes has a good answer to this one. According to him all-knowing means that God knows all things that are true. This basically just means God's knowledge (and power) is in accordance with immutable semantic and logical rules. With out this any argument about God's abilities boils down to a quagmire of bad english. According to Descartes the answer to the question "Can God lift a stone He can't lift?" is "No. Don't be stupid."

Adam! · Post by **Adam!** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 3:18 pm

starfinger wrote:
15-16 puzzle wrote:This is what strikes many people as a lack of free will.
It's not that God is enforcing his version of events, it's that you're not capable of faking him out by changing your mind at the last second.

15-16 puzzle wrote:This is what strikes many people as a lack of free will.

starfinger · Post by **starfinger** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 3:36 pm

Puce wrote: If God 'knows' that I will post this message, then I will post this message.

you forgot this part:

if I will post this message, then God knows that I will post it.

It's an if-and-only-if scenario, but God's knowledge of it is not an action that involves will.

-craig

HeuristicsInc · Post by **HeuristicsInc** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 3:43 pm

Puce wrote:Not at all. I'm taking the reasonable viewpoint of propositional logic. If something is 'known' then it must be 'true'. If something is 'true' then it cannot be false (what a pointless statement!). In your example (assuming you are infallible) you know that the computer is in front of you. This necessitates that it is there; otherwise you are drawn into a logical contradiction. If you had amazing powers of foresight and accuracy and you 'knew' the computer will be there tomorrow, then that necessitates that it be there tomorrow, and no one has a choice in the matter.

Yes, someone could move it. Then you would KNOW that tomorrow it will be moved. But that person still had the choice to move it or not move it. You're still on FORCE instead of KNOW.
it seems like you aren't trying to understand what we're saying, as several people have now said the same thing a couple of times and you're insisting the same thing yourself.

According to Descartes the answer to the question "Can God lift a stone He can't lift?" is "No. Don't be stupid."

that's funny.
-bill

c hack · Post by **c hack** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 3:50 pm

Puce wrote: But if God knows what you are going to do (by that I mean He knows the outcome of each individual decision) then that doesn't leave you with a choice. If you are free to choose something different than what God knows you are going to do then God is fallible.

Say you're watching Paris Hilton at a party. You know she's gonna drink a lot, glam it up, and flirt with the attractive guys, but that doesn't mean she has any less say in it.

Puce wrote:I like Starfinger's (and 15-16's) definition, as in God knows the end but not the middle, and you have free control over how you choose to get there. Unfortunately this challenges the 'all-knowing' aspect of God.

You're anthropomorphizing God, which just gets you into trouble. To God, there is no beginning, end, or middle. He doesn't know, he Knows. Edit: rather, he doesn't know everything that will ever happen, he is everything that will ever happen.

When you can comprehend the absense of nothing, then you start to understand the nature of God.

Adam! · Post by **Adam!** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 4:35 pm

starfinger wrote:
Puce wrote: If God 'knows' that I will post this message, then I will post this message.
you forgot this part: "if I will post this message, then God knows that I will post it."

Just to be heretical, lets say I get the chance to have a little tea time conversation with Starfinger's God. So I ask him

Puce: "God, will I apply for grad school?"
God: "Well, I really shouldn't tell you, but yes, you will apply on Nov 25th, 2004"
Puce: "Then I don't really have a choice in the matter, do I? Seeing as you already know the truth and all."
God: "My child, of course you have a choice. In fact, you have already chosen it, and I just know what your choice was."
Puce: "Oh sweet. Hold on... if you already know that I'll choose to apply, that doesn't leave me with much choice then, does it."
God: "Well, I guess not, but that's only because you already know what your choice will be."
Puce: "So if you wiped my memory... you can do that, right"
God: "Of course."
Puce: "OK, if you wiped my memory of this conversation I would feel like I have freewill again, right?"
God: "Yeah."
Puce: "But I wouldn't really have freewill, right?"
God: "Puce, you seem to a have a hard time understanding this. To use an analogy, I may know every minute detail of the movie that is your life, but every moment you are writing the screenplay."
Puce: "And you can skip ahead an act or two and see what's next, right?"
God: "Now you're getting it."
Puce: "But if you already have a finished copy, and I've only written the first act, can I change the last two acts now?"
God: "No, because you've already written those parts."
Puce: "So, I don't get to make any choices from here on in?"
God: "Of course you do. For instance: In 2006 you'll choose to drop out of Grad school, and in 2009 you'll choose to marry a fat girl..."
Puce: "Ack! Stop telling me this!"
God: "Oh, sorry."
Puce: "God, you've got a fucked up idea of freewill."
God: "..."
Puce: "One last question: God, are you real?"
God: "No, Pucious Kellis."
Puce: "Oh..."
God: "Ha ha ha!"
Puce: "Oh, I get it. That was a good one, God. You truly are 'The Man'.

OK, we know who won (or: Does God exist?)

Who will win the presidential election?