The Song Fight Bulletin Board

Both formats have their uses. A "proper score" doesn't tell you where to play a particular note, for example, since most pianos don't come with multiple keys that play the same note at slightly different timbres. You can't bend a piano note, &c. &c.

Guitar tab was designed for guitars and makes a lot of sense in that context. On the other hand, you don't really need to put any effort into learning it, because it is so god damn simple that single-cell organisms can follow it without difficulty.

roymond wrote: - alligator clips on multiple strings that create cool clangy chords
- chords of harmonics (5th, 7th, 12th fret madness)
- open resonating chords (by banging on the guitar top or bridge)
- crazy fast strumming so I don't have to think about what the left hand is doing
- screw-driver slide chords
(...)
Did Hostess keep a log book so he could remember month-by-month what he did in 2nd grade?

Hey! There's nothing in my 2nd or 3rd grade notes about alligator clips.

Those early guitar lessons were a real emotional thing for me. I loved learning to read music (I still can't read tab very well) and I loved working through later sections of my Mel Bay texts. But I couldn't stand the one string at a time teaching technique. I knew right away that guitar was my instrument, but I wanted to learn it, not tickle it. It was frustrating that I wasn't "allowed" to touch the G-string until I could reliably play C-B-D-C-E-D-F-E-G-F-A-F-E-D-C ten times fast. And then they started on two note diads. I figured out one evening (instead of practicing) that I wouldn't be playing anything on the low E for about a year. That's when I gave up the lessons and taught myself.

About 4 years after that, I was turned down for classical lessons by a more advanced instructor. I'd learned too much wrong and, un-Yoda-like, he did not want to help me unlearn what I had learned.

I imagine you and Adrian Belew will laugh over your alligator clip-enhanced feedback sessions about my silly plight. Zappa said drop out, go to the library, and educate yourself. But that won't work very well until someone helps you learn to read.

I feel like I'm just dumping my bio onto this site, but I actually have a point about learning guitar (or anything, probably). All I'm really trying to say is:

1) Lessons are frustrating, but they're valuable

2) Self-teaching is more fun but the earlier you give up lessons, the harder it is to get as good as you want to be

3) Once you jump off the lesson-train, they might not let you back on

bzl wrote:Both formats have their uses. A "proper score" doesn't tell you where to play a particular note, for example, since most pianos don't come with multiple keys that play the same note at slightly different timbres. You can't bend a piano note, &c. &c.

Guitar tab was designed for guitars and makes a lot of sense in that context. On the other hand, you don't really need to put any effort into learning it, because it is so god damn simple that single-cell organisms can follow it without difficulty.

You're exactly right. Standard notation is tab for piano. Every instrument could have it's own notation, really (a cheat sheet for oboists trying to play Berio's sequenza #7). But western composers since Bach and most conductors refer to piano for its wide range and easy polyphony. And how dare the trombonists demand Mr. Boulez learn trombone-tab? Just make a squiggly line between two piano notes and write "gliss." over it. Close enough for jazz.

Tab is very intuitive for guitarists. I find it much harder to sight read, but that's probably just my lack of practice.

Well, classical guitarists do read from standard notation. There are symbols for bending and sliding and all that stuff.

Jazz players read melodies off standard tab.

Tab isn't really a standard thing, it's much more ad-hoc I think. Music for people who can't read music.

Standard notation doesn't tell me where to play a note on the 'cello either, but there's no "'cello tab". I decide where to play the note and I make a notation in my music to remind myself-- and position is just as important on any other stringed instrument as it is on the guitar.

Standard notation is very dense, and definitely not the easiest thing to learn. But it puts the most information in the most efficient space, communicating not just the notes but how long, how fast, how hard, how smooth, how loud, how quiet to play those notes. It's much easier to see on notation that "I'm playing a scale, and it's goign up" than it is on tab. It's much easier to see the line of a melody.

Ain't nobody gonna be dissin' standard notation on my watch.

JB

jb wrote: Standard notation doesn't tell me where to play a note on the 'cello either, but there's no "'cello tab".

Oh yeah?

Nonstandard? Sure. But this stuff happens organically and necessity is the mother of invention. Sign language only gained academic status as maybe-a-language after some teachers at a deaf kids' school noticed that the students were talking with their hands.

JB wrote: It's much easier to see on notation that "I'm playing a scale, and it's goign up" than it is on tab. It's much easier to see the line of a melody.

Which is why composers and conductors prefer it. It's easier for a non-player to see the melodic shape. Whether it's easier for a player to see the melodic shape is an empirical question.

Not to dis standard notation. If you want to write music that other people can read, and read 100% of the music that's been written since 1600AD, learn standard notation. If you want people to play your 'cello/harmonica/recorder/Moog/guitar piece in a particular way, learn (or make up) an instrument-, or piece-specific notation. But there's nothing either/or about it.

Mostess wrote:Tab is very intuitive for guitarists. I find it much harder to sight read, but that's probably just my lack of practice.

I agree with JB on this. I never found tabs to be "intuitive" except for telling me where to play a certain chord in a certain way (which I find very restrictive). I never learned with tabs except for some alternate chord fingering charts I used learning jazz, as a short cut. But that didn't help me "read" tab sheets.

After you can read standard notation, you have vast possibilities opened up. You can play that same note in four or five different places, as someone pointed out. Chords can be played in many different ways. This introduces notation that's both more exact and more open to interpretation. I'm way out of practice (like 20 years), but as a working classical guitarist I could sight read pretty intense parts no problem.

I know some people who can read tabs fluently. But tabs can't achive the complexity that standard notation can at a higher level. And that's not a bad thing, as it's often not necessary, either.

roymond wrote:

Mostess wrote:Tab is very intuitive for guitarists. I find it much harder to sight read, but that's probably just my lack of practice.

I agree with JB on this. I never found tabs to be "intuitive" except for telling me where to play a certain chord in a certain way (which I find very restrictive).

(...)

But tabs can't achive the complexity that standard notation can at a higher level. And that's not a bad thing, as it's often not necessary, either.

Sorry, I can't give up the ghost on this. The start of this whole tab thing was Puce listing "Never learn to read tab" among the decisions that contributed to his inability to play the guitar "properly". I've learned a lot from tablature notations of complicated arrangements. Where the complexity was at the "lower level" of how to actually play it. Especially open tuning ones (I remember Crosby's "Guenivere" I got from some guitar magazine and it really taught me a lot about the instrument).

I had a good classical book that used standard notation, but put circled arabic numerals over notes to indicate string and roman numerals to indicate fret/hand position, both with long horizontal lines indicating how long that fingering applied. Would you consider that preferable to tab? I learned a lot from that book, too.

Of course, if you're serious about tone and technique you'll find notated fingerings restrictive or superfluous. But the thread is called "How to: Learn Guitar", isn't it? I can't honestly say that ignoring tablature is a good idea.

Besides, tablature as a notation system takes a couple minutes, tops, to figure out. It's just a map of your guitar over time. Standard notation, for all it's diatonic goodness, is a maze of weird nonlinearities that takes a lot longer to learn. Not that you shouldn't. Just that maybe (just maybe) once you can read it, you lose sympathy for the unfortunate souls who can't but want to play music anyway.

I wasn't advising against learning tab or arguing against it as a learning tool. Was just relating my experience.

Generally I like looking at things from many angles. Or at least support the approach.

It appears I inadvertently opened up the age old tab versus score debate. The original point I was trying to make was that in the so called "Anti Tips" posted earlier it implied that if you don't use tab you can't play guitar which is complete rubbish. I didn't want someone to read that and think it was the only way to learn. I managed to pass grade 7 when I was at school without ever looking at a tab which somewhat proves the contrary. I would mark the left hand fret position above the score to mark the changes. After a few years I didn't need to anymore because I instinctively knew where the best place was to play the particular note shown. Tab is useful but it won't teach you that kind of skill.