The Song Fight Bulletin Board

jb wrote:Your vocal performance lacks discipline, to me. Many notes are on key, and then I can sort of tell when you "lose yourself in the music" because all of a sudden you go way sharp. A producer would have you in the vocal booth all damn day getting rid of that sort of thing.

To a "T" exactly! I would like to get "rid of that sort of thing". Believe me. I have myself in my room recording take after take after take. At some point I just decide to live with the best take.

jb wrote:This song definitely isn't in a genre I like. I kind of despise the tough-guy-singing-sensitive-lyrics because I can't get behind the sentimental lyrics as presented by a gritty voice and tough guitars.

I really do try to break free of this, but it just comes naturally. It doesn't help that I typically love "tough-guy-singing-sensitive-lyrics" songs, so it is as you said....if I like a genre.

jb wrote:I think I would like it more if you weren't yelling it. I can imagine myself getting behind a song from one of those bands, presented quietly, without the strained vocals. Like "Polly."

I totally agree. I can't seem to tame myself back in the right way.

It's great to hear from another perspective. I honestly don't want to be in the Staind vein. There are enough bands like that, but I tend to fall into that rut.

One major difference though is while they're out for money and the love of teenage idiots everywhere, you do it from the heart, and that's what matters. So no faulting you there man, as long as you try.

Wages wrote:

jb wrote:Your vocal performance lacks discipline, to me. Many notes are on key, and then I can sort of tell when you "lose yourself in the music" because all of a sudden you go way sharp. A producer would have you in the vocal booth all damn day getting rid of that sort of thing.

To a "T" exactly! I would like to get "rid of that sort of thing". Believe me. I have myself in my room recording take after take after take. At some point I just decide to live with the best take.

Disclaimer: There's a good chance you already know everything I say below. Please don't be offended if in my urge to pedantry I underestimate your recording knowledge.

There are plenty of gaps in your vocal line. If you can't get a 4:00 take straight in tune, split up the vocal take into small pieces, and do each one until it's in tune. Your recording software will let you loop a section of your track so you can sing it over and over, and each repetition is saved as a "take." Then you pick the best one.

And if you really want to get clever you can "punch" or "duck" the bad notes-- punching being insert just one word if it's out of tune (your software can do that too), and ducking being either pitch-correcting just the ouch or otherwise mangling it so it's not heinous.

An example of a punch is at 2:44 in my "<a href="http://johnorama.com/songs/fun_pop/new_planet.mp3">New Planet</a>" and I did that when I had no idea what I was doing. Your stuff sounds like you've got some clue, so it shouldn't be tough for you to figure out.

JB

jb wrote:And if you really want to get clever you can "punch" or "duck" the bad notes-- punching being insert just one word if it's out of tune (your software can do that too), and ducking being either pitch-correcting just the ouch or otherwise mangling it so it's not heinous.

I've never done this before. I should give it a try. :thumbs up:

+++++Gawking Urethras comments+++++
vocals, lyrics = Wages
all instruments = King Arthur
kick ass solo that deserves it's own credit = King Artur

I listened to the Hinder song. I understand what you are saying. These lyrics are very in your face which I normally try to avoid. This song was written improv, meaning I started with the verse guitar and wrote the lyrics as I played (transcribed and edited after jamming) and built from there. Most times I write the lyrics completely. Then I noodle the guitar a few sessions and record a rough idea of the whole song. Then I'll later completely change the chorus in search of a better melody, better change, or better overall hookiness.

I will work on my lyrical style more. Thanks for again your points of view. I'm also gunna try to clean my voice up a little and see how that is received on a future entry. Given that I can't objectionably analyze my voice, I rely on the POV of others, then I re-listen to the tune from their POV to see what they mean. It's extremely helpful.

However, all in all, I think this song turned out very nicely (for the sub-genre*). King Arthur did a fantastic job bringing lots of feeling to the song. That solo was great. Had we more time, I'd love to hear an extended version. The weakest points to me were the spots where my voice slips way off key. Singing in a more subduded (ha) voice style may make it easier to avoid this. 4/5

*P.S. As musical discussion, what do you consider other sub-genres of this genre (and what is the master genre)? Feel free to PM me.

and now, w/o further ado....

+++++++++++++THE REVIEWS+++++++++++++
Zipline
Not a bad tune. Your vocals are grating my ears a little. 2/5

Thornberry
I'm kind of wanting to hear more of that piano. Good entry. 3/5

Starfinger
Great vocals! 3/5

R. Mosquito
Interesting industrial entry. 3/5

Paul Moyer
Good job. I wouldn't be able to listen to it more than a few times because of the sheer number of "pink ribbon"s. 4/5

Paco Del Stinko
This is a great entry! Great vocals and great riffs. Very Zappa like. EDIT: I wrote this before I read any other reviews. This IS extremely Zappa like. 5/5

Mr. Lostman feat b. ellison
I like the way you are singing it, but the production as I'm sure you know is very "demo-y". 3/5

Mike Lamb
...Argentina.. oh, sorry. Good song for the genre. I think the snare is a little too "in front". 3/5

Melvin
This is a really strong entry. I'm sorry you were up against Paco. I'm really diggin' the guitar work. 4/5

Meeshka Chaukinov
Vocals remind me of Les Claypool. The repeatitiveness of the song is too much and when the changes do come, they are too minimal. 2:30 holds a good change that I would like to have heard about 1:00 in. 3/5

+++++I TOOK A BREAK AT THIS POINT, HAD A HUGE CUP OF COFFEE AND THEN+++++++++

MC Eric B
I watched the Nerdcore Rising trailer. I'm intrigued. Honestly, I do see it in a different light (I love the quote "...sings things I care about...like magic the gathering..."). I think your music is great, but I think your rapping voice still needs "more". I mean, until about halfway in, I feel it sounds kinda flat, or perhaps it would be better said that I think it "needs some more soul or character". Eminem, Cypress Hill, and even the guy from Limp Bizquick have what I'm talking about. Now, it is possible that I'm missing the point of nerdcore. Feel free to enlighten or flame me. 3/5

Masterhyde
You have the soul I'm talking about with MC Eric B. However, the music isn't as strong. I'd love to hear MC Eric B feat Masterhyde, or even MC Eric B VS Masterhyde. 2/5

LSares
I think the songwriting is good and it's a decent sounding tune, but the voice needs some work. It's seems like you are singing the same note or flat. I would guess someone else has explained what I mean much better. 2/5

Klownhole
I'm liking the mellower Klownhole. The vocals in the verse remind me of Franz Ferdinand. I think the chorus needs to be completely re-done with a completely new melody and possibly a different chord progression. A completely different change in the tune like at 2:42 helps, but that's a bit more than I meant! by 3:30 it seems like way too much...then it starts really dragging at 4:00. If you got that whole change down to 15 to 30 seconds and possibly did it near every or every other chorus, it would help a lot. Oh, and turn it down from 15 to 11. 15 IS too loud. 3/5

++++++++++++AFTER A COUPLE DAYS BREAK, WAKE AND DRINK (;)) ANOTHER CUP OF COFFEE, WRAPPING UP THE REVIEWS+++++++++++

Hostess Mostess
I hear a lot of Phil Collins, Vertical Horizon, Sting, and even Paul McCartney in this...but not in a bad way. Very nice entry. 5/5

Flvxxvm Florvm
Oooo... a blues entry. I know that's a hand clap, but it sounds like something else. I tried to get this same sound as the intro to <a href="http://www.songfight.org/music/a_woman_ ... mp3">Woman on Paper</a>. The "hand clap and foot stomp" blues sound. Other than that humorous sound, excellent blues tune. Is that you singing? Very nice. My step-father-in-law voted for you, even though he is a Zappa fan...he's a HUGE blues fan! 4/5

Feldspar
Nice tune. Too much bass and clippiness, but somewhat fixed by adjusting EQ. 3/5

The Fault
I like the groove of the song. A couple minutes in though, I'm feeling the melody's a little repeatitive. I could be listening too closely. 3/5, could be 4/5 with some tweaking.

DM6
Rockobilly. Nice beat. I like the guitar. 4/5

Disciples of Beer
Very nice. You listen to Morphine, don't you? Oh yeah! I wish I could do something like this. 5/5

++++++++++++HAD TO GO BUY BREAKFAST, COFFEE WEARING DOWN++++++

Dave vs Mandy
That's cool as shit! Beats the shit outta nerdcore. 5/5

Cynthia Size and the @eclectic sp00ns
Not a bad techno euro-pop song, but doesn't catch me. 3/5

Chuck the Bear
There's a slight Soul Asylum in the voice. It kind of reminds me of "tiny music" STP. Comparisons aside, nice entry. 3/5, with better production, 4/5

Billy's Little Trip w/ Paco Del Stinko
Vocals sound a little like Offspring. Is that Paco on the guitar? I see why you like my music so much...I like yours a lot too. 4/5

++++++++++++++THE WRAP-UP+++++++++++++++++

Isn't it great how I always do my reviews in a different way?

Top Entries
Paco Del Stinko
Hostess Mostess (I can learn something from your singing)
The Disciples of Beer
Dave vs Mandy

It's a close one between Paco and Hostess. I'll vote for Hostess (reasons withheld). EDIT: I just went to vote and the new song was just posted! I'll send my vote into fightmaster with fingers crossed.

Wages wrote: MC Eric B
I think your music is great, but I think your rapping voice still needs "more".

Of course, it's not his music. It's not even music that was written for the fight.

Congrads Chuck and Hostess.

I guess its true. The King and I have 10 fans! yaaaaa!

For the record, I have no knowledge of any plots and/or cadres of, or relating to, anything 9-ish.

-craig

I did some reviews but didn't finish them; sorry to those I missed

Billy's Little Trip with guest star Paco Del Stinko: Yeah, pretty good. slightly overfuzzed but that solo's rippin. I like the drum breakdown after that bit.

Chuck The Bear: Immediately jumps out at me because of the recording quality, I like the verses, the chorus starts to drag a bit but then the wobbly middle bit saves it. Reminds me a lot of the Webb Brothers with some of your chord changes, that's probably a bit of a derivative example. good stuff, definitely worth a few listens but it won't change my world.

Cynthia Size and the @eclectic sp00ns: This is pretty cool spacey, off-beat electroballadry, the vocal metre is really weird, like the emphasis is in unexpected places. There's a synthy trumpet sound in there which I'm not sure about and I've never been a fan of midi pitch bends.

Dave vs. Mandy: haha, this is cool. my first thought was that this sounded like a total watse of time with the overly simplistic rhythms and silly vocals, but as it builds up and the rhymes hit me it starts to sound much cleverer than it first appears. I'm even wishing it was a bit longer by the end. fun.

The Disciples of Beer: Nothing I particularly dislike but it does nothing for me either.

DM6: Interesting kind of country-fuzz here. I wasn't getting into it much but I do like that it's just a wibbly noise fest and yet the foundation of the song is totally solid. This would be pretty good to have a bar brawl to.

The Fault: This is pretty slow-burning, so I doubt I'll really get into it without listening a few times but it's persistent and all the sounds gel together well expect the piano sounds a tiny bit too robotic. The vocals could do with gaining a bit of emotion as the song progresses I think, the apathetic approach works okay for the first half of the song but there feel like there should be a build up of energy, which isn't there.

Feldspar: Yup that's a song, and it didn't irritate me. alright

Flvxxvm Florvm: Okay, I can't really say I'm diggin this a lot, but I like the whole dirty guitar/harmonica/handclap action. I wonder if the vocals could've been easier to listen to if you'd turned the mic gain down or stood further away from it or something. Abrasive is fine, abrasive clipping pushes this into unlistenable territory.

Gawking Urethras: You're getting better at hitting notes, still a couple of dodgy one's but this sounds pretty good. Having said that, the better you get at singing the more you remind me of Creed and stuff. That's probably the harshest thing I could ever say in a review. The track's well done but too loungey for me and what is that hi-hat/shaker thing that comes in halfway through? sounds like the tracks gonna go all JT r'n'b stylee, why would you want people to think that.

Hostess Mostess: yes, time for a good song. I should really burn off a best of HM for my parents I think they'd really dig it. Not that I don't, I definitely like this but it's not the kind of thing I listen to a lot, and they're big Al Stewart fans. You guys always make a fight worth listening to. Cheers.

Klownhole: This is Klownhole right? this is a bit jaunty......there we go, more like it. This is cool cos it actually sounds like an earthquake, which is what more rock bands should sound like, rather than faggoty whining floppy-fringed pop bastards.

OH! OH! FOR HIS PARENTS! HIS <B>PARENTS</B>! ARE YOU GOING TO TAKE THAT FROM HIM HOSTESS MOSTESS!?

Wages wrote:I guess I am looking more for a pop-like, Vedder-like melody. This is why I like the music of Metallica better than other metal bands such as Iron Maiden or Judas Priest. The other bands are "harder", but I just can't get into their "genre dedication".

This has nothing to do with the Pink Ribbon fight, but I'd question this Metallica analogy.

I'd argue that Metallica and the thrash movement they spearheaded are responsible for taking the melody OUT of metal.

Before Metallica's first album in 1983, metal vocalists from Ozzy to Ronnie James Dio to Bruce Dickinson, actually *sang*. Actual notes and stuff.

Well, OK, there was a lot of screaming from Motorhead, not to mention Venom, but I still say actual singing was the rule rather the exception.

Metallica are primarily responsible for changing that, and making most people believe that metal vocals equals pitchless shouting.

jb wrote:OH! OH! FOR HIS PARENTS! HIS <B>PARENTS</B>! ARE YOU GOING TO TAKE THAT FROM HIM HOSTESS MOSTESS!?

I'd like to retort, but:

1) Our 3-year old is our biggest fan. Our 2-year old is our second biggest fan.

2) As much as I'd like to feel all "don't trust anyone over 30"ish, I can't forget I crossed that line almost (*winces*) a decade ago.

3) Chances are, his parents babysat for us. A Hostess Mostess CD would be appropriate payback for that mean "hide and I won't seek" game they tricked us into.

4) Phil Collins, whom we apparently sound like, turned 56 last week.

jeff robertson wrote:This has nothing to do with the Pink Ribbon fight, but I'd question this Metallica analogy.

I'd argue that Metallica and the thrash movement they spearheaded are responsible for taking the melody OUT of metal.

Before Metallica's first album in 1983, metal vocalists from Ozzy to Ronnie James Dio to Bruce Dickinson, actually *sang*. Actual notes and stuff.

Metallica are primarily responsible for changing that, and making most people believe that metal vocals equals pitchless shouting.

Points well taken. To clarify, I was speaking of the "Black" album and Load & Re-Load albums (the alternative-Metallica, as it were), but I'm sure that offers little change. I'm beginning to wonder if there is something between "singing", "speaking", and "pitchless shouting", and what would that be called (besides "noise"). It seems to me there is a melody in songs like "Unforgiven", "Until It Sleeps", and "Nothing Else Matters". I heard an interview with James Hetfield (spelling?) where he explained there is an approximately 2 hour warm-up to be able to "sing" like he does so that he doesn't lose his voice after a couple of tunes. To me, there IS a melody in the shouting, but it is certainly different than the standard def. of melody.

I look at it like the differences between classical music and rock music. When compared side-by-side, they are so completely different, it would be difficult to categorize them together at all, but we all know these to be "music". So, what I'm saying is, I think one must be open to non-traditional styles of music (and singing)... even if it is nerdcore.

taking the melody OUT of metal

How can I hum the melody if it has no melody?

pitchless shouting

Riddle me this, does all sound have pitch, and if so, how could shouting be pitchless?



....great discussion....

Wages wrote: Riddle me this, does all sound have pitch, and if so, how could shouting be pitchless?

"Pitch" loses meaning when a sound has a lot of unrelated frequency content

is anybody else going to review this fight.

-craig

I will review the fight late. I've had lots of problems with my internet at home. I can't stream at work either. I've been trying to figure out the whole podcast thing, but I keep getting only song from each fight. I thought I changed my preferences to download them manually , but it's still not working for me. I'm pretty sure I'm an idiot. I also tried streaming which is my usual mode of listening on the weekend, but it kept sounding choppy and the buffer couldn't handle the songs, I'm pretty sure it's my PCs, but I haven't had a good listen to the whole thing yet. Out of what I've hear so far all i know is:

Paco Del Stinko delivered one of the better riffs I've ever heard.....

And Chuck the Bear made a beautiful song very Genesis like circa Duke. My elbaorate review will come, along with an apology for the Zipline crackle, as soon as I can manage to listen to the whole darn fight. What bits of other songs I've heard though were amazing!

My apologies for the late reviews (to come)

glennny

I just noticed I never reviewed Pink Ribbon. I just reviewed Convalescence. I'm f**king losing it. Review to come.

I really meant to review this fight. I listened through it a couple times but never got to reviews. College is hectic man.

But thanks to everyone who did and to my SEVEN!!! votes.

Oh and I nearly forgot, BIG thanks to b. ellison for providing the bass for the song. Collaborating is a lot of fun.

Check back some time for my reviews, when I feel like taking a two hour study break.

Phil Collins, whom we apparently sound like, turned 56 last week.

For the record, when I compared your entry to Genesis, I meant early Peter Gabriel-led Genesis, not the watered down Phil Collins-led Genesis.

MintyHandy wrote:For the record, when I compared your entry to Genesis, I meant early Peter Gabriel-led Genesis, not the watered down Phil Collins-led Genesis.

Didn't realize many other people listened to Genesis. Cool! ps. I still like the Phil Collins-led Genesis, even though it's more pop than prog.

A good bit of it was still proggy, like ABACAB. And some of the pop stuff like the Invisible Touch album was totally stuff I grew up on, and that's great!
-bill

I would just like to say how impressed I am with this batch of songs, and the sheer degree of musicianship that songfight!ers are bringing to the table here.

You guys rule.

MintyHandy wrote:

Phil Collins, whom we apparently sound like, turned 56 last week.

For the record, when I compared your entry to Genesis, I meant early Peter Gabriel-led Genesis, not the watered down Phil Collins-led Genesis.

And the inimitable (though we try!) Peter Gabriel is 57 years young today.

Happy birthday, PG. You have the touch.

(Humbling tidbit for the day: at my age, he released one of the best videos ever made of one of the 3 top 10 songs from his Billboard charted #2 album)