Le 9 Septembre

[Jefff]

Hahahaha

[Lord of Oats]

You do realise you are talking absolute crap here, don't you? Don't post nonsense like this - it makes you sound stupid.

I'm not really sure how to take this. There's plenty of research to back me up. The fats in meats are much healthier to consume when the animals are eating their natural diet.

Could you show me this research that says that beef is "metabolic poison"?

I didn't characterize it that way. I said the term gets thrown around. Mostly by vegetarian propagandists, whom I loathe. Either way, the nutritional research all points to the conclusion that grass-fed meats are healthier to consume. Grain versus grass, at this point, is a culinary and economic question.

Nobody else got so upset at this. Do you have some kind of vested interest? Ray, are you a cattle rancher?

[Caravan Ray]

It has always been my theory that if the USA actually had some decent sporting teams that could compete significantly in any of the major World Cups, then they may not feel the need to keep going off invading people

because we'd be able to kill people after football games

Exactly! Just like the English do. It's far more civilised that way.

[wages]

It has always been my theory that if the USA actually had some decent sporting teams that could compete significantly in any of the major World Cups, then they may not feel the need to keep going off invading people

because we'd be able to kill people after football games

Exactly! Just like the English do. It's far more civilised that way.

I completely agree!

And we could have real fighting worldwide (even to the death). So the hardcore testosterone dudes can kill each other for entertainment... just like in Roman times. And I honestly believe that should be allowed...but definitely controlled! Hey, it could even be used as the old "our best warrior vs your best".. that is if the world "must" still have it mean something political. (WTF!?)

But just to be clear human fighting is completely different from animal fighting which we force/train animals to kill/fight each other/us. But human vs human... hey they made the choice through the appropriate rules to do so.

But I don't/won't participate in any such activities myself, though I might be interested to watch. My anger is... voyeuristic. rotfl

...just contributing...

[Sheail]

And we could have real fighting worldwide (even to the death). So the hardcore testosterone dudes can kill each other for entertainment... just like in Roman times.

A pretty good description of rugby union. Its one of the few sports where countries with tiny populations can trounce the big ones e.g. Wales v Canada!

[Caravan Ray]

And we could have real fighting worldwide (even to the death). So the hardcore testosterone dudes can kill each other for entertainment... just like in Roman times.

A pretty good description of rugby union. Its one of the few sports where countries with tiny populations can trounce the big ones e.g. Wales v Canada!

Or New Zealand v just about anybody

[Caravan Ray]

Nobody else got so upset at this. Do you have some kind of vested interest?

No - my interest in livestock doesn't extend beyond the odd high-quality German art-house gentlemen's relaxation video. I just get upset very easily. About anything really. Especially people calling coriander "cilantro".

I also get upset with

beef is bad news (the term metabolic poison gets thrown around a little)

...which is of course nonsense. Beef is a delicious source of protein, iron and other trace elements wich can in moderation be a valuable part of a balanced diet. I am glad to see you disowned the "metabolic poison" comment though.

Another pet hate of mine is any comment which take the form:

"X" is better for you/healthier/better for the environment/ etc... than "Y" because "X" is natural

- a statement that this comes dangerously close to:

The fats in meats are much healthier to consume when the animals are eating their natural diet

A small amount of fat in your diet is essential. Too much can be harmful. Whether or not there are slightly more omega 3 fatty acids in grass fed beef than in feedlot beef really is fairly irrelevent. If you are relying on red meat to supply your recommended daily intake of fatty acids - you are probably eating too much of it - wherever it comes from.

Also, whether there is more marbeling and hence more fat in feedlot beef is also fairly irrelevent. There is far more variation in fat content between different parts of a single beast than that between different animals on different feed. If you eat lean cuts of steak with the fat trimmed - you will minimise your saturated fat intake. If you eat meat that has been minced together with fat and gristle and hooves or whatever and made into a hamburger, you will maximise your fat intake - no matter how much grass that cow has eaten.

"Natural" doesn't always mean good. A feed lot can control cattles' intake of protein and minerals etc to ensure a uniform product is produced. Old Bessie out in the pasture could be eating anything. When you buy grass-fed beef, do you ensure that the pasture that cattle came from had adequate levels of trace elements like selenium or copper? Grass can be very non-uniform. Do you ensure that the meat is not from cattle from a pasture containing parthenium weed, or any other toxic plant which may taint the meat?

Obviously we are coming at this from different viewpoints. I understand that in the US, most of your beef is pretty shithouse. Corn fed, pumped full of hormones and riddled with BSE. That is why US beef is banned for import to many countries. I don't blame you for not eating it. But to make a blanket statement that beef "is bad for you" or grain-fed beef "is not as healthy as" grass fed beef - is just silly.

The main problem with these little half-facts based on half-truths is they can become considered as accepted wisdom. Like "nuclear energy is clean energy". The last thing the world needs is the USA deciding it wants to eat more grass fed beef, because it probably won't come from the temporate praries of North America (ironically, one of the few places on earth that actually has evolved to support large herds of bovines) - it will come from the world's big beef exporting areas - the tropical forests of Brazil and the tropical savannah of northern Australia - area's which have no native large, ruminant quadrapeds.

Cows are bad there. They're not natural.

[Billy's Little Trip]

I understand that in the US, most of your beef is pretty shithouse. Corn fed, pumped full of hormones and riddled with BSE.

OK, I'm not an expert here, and probably know way more than I should about this, or not enough. One of my in laws works for the department of agriculture, so I hear this crap all the time. So your BSE statement above shocked me, coming from such a smart guy that complains about half truths.
Corn fed, yes, that"s a good thing - hormones, yes, and dietary supplements too, that have increased good health and have no evidence of harm to humans - riddled with BSE? You're confusing us with Europe. The U.S. first known case of BSE was around 2003, which has been connected to imported feed. We had 1 in 1,000,000 effected and isolated. As soon as the U.S. knew where BSE was coming from, the FDA and USDA put a ban on feed containing certain animal proteins. But Britain continued and as usual, told the world to fuck off. European beef has been "riddled" with BSE since the 70's due to their incredibly inhumane and filthy practices.
The only reason for a ban on U.S. beef is for economical reasons, but the hormone issue has been used to front the ban. We have quite a few free range cattle farms in the U.S. also with 0 hormones, but that is also banned. So as far as I'm concerned, it's BS.
The truth is, the European beef market is crap because the farmers were finally demanded to get their BSE epidemic controlled, which meant the mass cremation of Euro bovine. Over 4,000,000 had to be cremated. I remember reading somewhere that it could be 20 some years before the Euro beef market ever recovers from it, and also because of the incredibly large number of BSE related deaths to humans, CJD I think it's called, people are eating less beef.
Anyway, stick that in your pipe and smoke it, lol.

[Caravan Ray]

Well done - you found the deliberate obnoxious exaggeration! And I agree with you completely. The point somewhere behind my ranting tthere was there are issues relating to beef production in the US which are really related to management issues, not the fact that feed-lot cattle is somehow intrinsically produces unhealthy meat.

And as you said BSE comes from feed with animal proteins in it, and virtually all pasture raised cattle will receive some supplementary feeding at some time. The health danger comes from what is actually in the feed being given to the cattle - not from the fact that there is something inherently 'bad' about grain feeding cattle or eating beef in general.

[Billy's Little Trip]

All I know is that our California cows are happy cows and they make great cheese.
note: Caravan Ray warning. This video clip might make you feel a bit randy.

edit: LMAO. up there where I typed California cows are happy cows, I accidentally hit the t instead of the r when I typed "are" and accidentally typed "ate". How ironic, huh? fixed