The Song Fight Bulletin Board

Here's some thoughts:

chonny: The intro makes the song sound like it's going to have some rocking vocals, and then when they bust in, it's all spoken-sung. I think the shift from the intro to the verse kind of nips the building energy in the bud. The first line is kind of weird, and doesn't really grab me in. The song, apart from the guitar on the part after the chorus, is very campfirey singalong, but I can't really make out the lyrics for most of it. The verses feel too short, like they need to have a shift to another part, and then a prechorus, so that by the time the guitar lick comes back, it sounds fresh again. As it is, it's always like 20 seconds away. You could have worked another minute into the song, and I think it would have turned out good. This song is okay.

cthonic youth: This is cool. It could even be a hair slower, to make the vox sound more sleepy and cracky. I like your vocals, but they seem a bit rushed. I would have liked it more if it had a slightly catchier chorus. This is very fun.

echo voodoo: The lyrics are sticking out at various places. This is nicely written, but I don't care for the arrangement or your voice. The keys are omnipresent and static, and it's hard to focus on the melody, which is kind of nice. I think I would like this song if it was played in a faster, more guitar-rock setting, with a singer who could really belt out some shit. This song is okay.

gnome alone: This is really bad. It is not funny.

hell yeahs: hmmmm, this is an interesting sound. I haven't heard a song like this from you. This is very sexy. I really like the verses. The chorus keeps me on my toes, I can't get a firm handle on it. Ohfuck, this song is like 1/2 as song as it should be. You really could have rammed a wanktastic shreddy guitar solo there at 2:13 and then had it come back with a bridge and then a return to the chorus. At the end of this song, I'm not ready for it to be over! ha, this is very nice.

Jon Mayor: The bass is cool, the second thing is cool too, but then those drums are too reverby. Oh, I can't hear the singer at all. hahahahahah, wtf is that dogtoy noise. Okay, the bass part could have been something good, but then you just throw random crap ontop of it. I don't care for this song.

Lord of Oats: The intro is not bad, but it goes on too long. Could've added some variation in the drumming or the guitars to make it feel less long. Oh, the shift in song style relates to the title alright, but it serve the song. Oh, these lyrics are really bad. Glue doesn't make broken objects start working, for example. The lyrics in a chorus need to be kinda vague and full of action words: your chorus just kinda says nothing for four lines. You kinda lose whatever comedy vibe you have going in the verse by saying nothing at all in the chorus. I mean, it's already established that things are being switched, it's not like the actual word itself adds anything there. Guitar solo doesn't do much for me, it feels especially long over such a repetitive backing track. Oh hey, the shift in tempo is cool. And the instruments dropping out. Strife? Never use strife in a song, ever. The end is not bad, the rest I don't care for.

Melvin: This song is fine. I wish the chorus didn't appear so soon. The verses seem to call for another section before the pause+chorus. The "love and hate and you" part is cool. This song also could've had another minute stitched into it and not be any worse for wear. This song is alright by me.

mico saudad: Oh hey, this is quite nice. Your voice vacillates for me between "charming" and "needing another take". Right around 1:45, I want there to be some sort of change up in the song. It gets to be too much of the same thing. I bet this would sound really good if you found a female singer and got her to record some more vocals for this song. There's lots of space in there already, I think it might sound good as a duet. This song is okay.

Pathetic Wanabees: ahhahahahahahah, this song is kind of going good up until the part where you say "switcherroooooo!", which unfortunately is the title of the song. The verses are kind of rocking, but then the chorus fails to build upon that energy. I don't care for this song.

Stu Jordan: Oh, this is too nicey jazz and slow for me. The bass and guitar hit at the same time with such regularity that it kind of makes the music sound like one big blur. Some more variation where the two instruments did their own things would make this song seem less long. About 1/2way through, I'm looking at the clock to see how much more time is left. This song isn't really bad, but it's not doing anything for me.

Swillington: Whoa. What is going on? hahahahah, the crazy drums sound out of place with the rest of the music when they first come in. I think this song would have sounded better if it was just you and an acoustic guitar, played to a metronome. The timing on the verses is crazy, I can't tell what's going on. I don't care for this song.

Thanks for the Frisbee: This is nice. When the second chorus starts, I start to notice the sparseness of the arrangement and the repetitiveness of the guitar part. Maybe some other instruments at that point would distract from that. Simple crap, triangles and chimes and xylophones and whatnot. Maybe another singer. This song is okay by me.

The Weakest Suit: This was sounding like a decent Third Eye Blind song, until the chorus came along. Eeeek, you could make get away with one of those octave thingies at the end of the chorus, but more than one in a row, and it sound like you couldn't come up with a chorus, so you just repeated something over and over. The verses on this are okay, but the chorus kills it for me. This song isn't doing it for me.

erik wrote:The bass and guitar hit at the same time with such regularity that it kind of makes the music sound like one big blur.

Because the guitar and bass don't hit on the downbeat at the same time in 95% of pop/rock songs.

Stu wrote:

erik wrote:The bass and guitar hit at the same time with such regularity that it kind of makes the music sound like one big blur.

Because the guitar and bass don't hit on the downbeat at the same time in 95% of pop/rock songs.

Are you saying that 95% of pop/rock songs do this? I don't listen to 95% of pop/rock songs. The ones I listen to don't do this. Just because other people do the same thing doesn't mean that what I said isn't valid.

erik wrote:

Stu wrote:

erik wrote:The bass and guitar hit at the same time with such regularity that it kind of makes the music sound like one big blur.

Because the guitar and bass don't hit on the downbeat at the same time in 95% of pop/rock songs.

Are you saying that 95% of pop/rock songs do this? I don't listen to 95% of pop/rock songs. The ones I listen to don't do this. Just because other people do the same thing doesn't mean that what I said isn't valid.

You must listen to some pretty avant-garde stuff then. But judging my the music I've heard from you (which is a fair amount. Marcus is a fan of your stuff, and I'll admit I am too) I'd say we have similar influences. If you were bored by the song, that's fine, it's not your thing. It just seems you tried to come up with a reason why it was boring you and that reason was something that just comes with the territory of pop music in general. If this were a free jazz forum, I would understand where you're coming from.

Maybe I'm not explaining myself well. The bass and guitar are playing almost the exact same thing for the entire song. Most pop and rock music that I listen to, the bass and the guitar aren't always playing the majority of notes at the exact same time. The bass usually plays a lot more notes, not just aping what the guitar is doing. I don't listen to very avant-garde stuff at all.

erik wrote:Maybe I'm not explaining myself well. The bass and guitar are playing almost the exact same thing for the entire song. Most pop and rock music that I listen to, the bass and the guitar aren't always playing the majority of notes at the exact same time. The bass usually plays a lot more notes, not just aping what the guitar is doing. I don't listen to very avant-garde stuff at all.

That makes sense. The bass should walk a bit - or even bust out little melodies of its own when nothing interesting is going on with the guitar.

I haven't listened to the song. But I do know a bunch of sort of hard-rock or metal-ey songs where the guitar and bass play the same riff in order to generate a really "thick" sort of feel. It's not 95% or even 75%, but in that certain genre they almost all do it. I will listen at work tomorrow and see if this is that genre. Until then, the mystery tantalizes me! (But not enough for me to plug all my shit in, it being strewn all over the room at the moment.)

jb wrote:I haven't listened to the song. But I do know a bunch of sort of hard-rock or metal-ey songs where the guitar and bass play the same riff in order to generate a really "thick" sort of feel. It's not 95% or even 75%, but in that certain genre they almost all do it. I will listen at work tomorrow and see if this is that genre. Until then, the mystery tantalizes me! (But not enough for me to plug all my shit in, it being strewn all over the room at the moment.)

I can help out here, JB. No, it's not that kind of song.

Having said that, I don't think Stu's bass line is bad at all for this type of mellow, pensive song. Perhaps in the sections without vocals, the bass could walk around slightly more, but whatever. Stu, I really love your vocals, by the way.

Congrats to the Hell Yeahs for a deserved win, and thanks for the nine honkin' votes, everyone!

jb wrote:I haven't listened to the song. But I do know a bunch of sort of hard-rock or metal-ey songs where the guitar and bass play the same riff in order to generate a really "thick" sort of feel. It's not 95% or even 75%, but in that certain genre they almost all do it.

Yeah, it's definitely not that type of song at all. I see what you all mean about possibly doing a bit more with the bass during times when the vocals aren't at the forefront. I guess what I was trying to do is not make it busy because it's such a mellow song. Perhaps it wouldn't be so noticeable if there were some sort of percussive thing added on after the first chorus, like a bit of light kick drum and ride cymbal action.

melvin wrote:Stu, I really love your vocals, by the way.

Thanks! It's good to hear positive things. Getting zero votes for the second time is a bit of a downer. Oh well, next time! 8)

spinlock wrote:sounds like Morrisey

THANK YOU

I have now listened to the Stu song, and agree with both Erik and Melvin. I think, overall, my biggest issue with the arrangement is the constant ONE-and TWO-and THREE-AND four-and rhythm shared by the guitar and bass almost exclusively with the occasional passing tone in the bass. I desperately wanted a change up, and for the bass to have more of an interesting countermelody, and for it to stop landing on the root quite so heavily.

I am at a bit of a loss, Stu, as to the vehemence of your retort to Erik's review. When you mention that 95% of pop/rock songs have the guitar and bass following each other, I (to my mind) naturally think your song is going to be pop/rock. But you're going for a very jazzy feel here, which confuses me, because I don't think that jazzy songs have the guitar and bass following each other very closely at all-- in my experience the guitar plays all sorts of inversions while the bass covers the root usually with the occasional inversion for a sweet variation.

Anyway, I think you're onto something with your style, Stu, but to get votes on Song Fight! you'll need some more interest-generating elements in your arrangement, which is partially what I think Erik was trying to get at. Some hooks, some harmony, a girl singer, funny lyrics, a really good solo (the one in this song is an afterthought and I don't think you planned what you were going to play), etc. etc. The ending of this track, in particular, falls quite thoroughly apart in my opinion.

JB

Also, Stu, keep in mind that due to Song Fight's one-vote system, you don't get votes just because someone liked your song. They had to like it best. In other words, even if everyone agreed that your song was second best overall, it would still get no votes whatsoever.

SPUD

p.s. All this discussion has caused me to listen to your song again as well, and I quite like it. Maybe not BEST...

...which brings up the argument for a 3-points-first, 2-points-second, 1-point-third-from-each-reviewer voting system. But I shall not be the one to go there. No, not I.

would the losing team get 1 point for making it into overtime? er... wrong game...

No, it's like the playoffs. Except you can tie... er, it's not at all like the playoffs. Nevermind.
-bill

Spud wrote:Also, Stu, keep in mind that due to Song Fight's one-vote system, you don't get votes just because someone liked your song. They had to like it best. In other words, even if everyone agreed that your song was second best overall, it would still get no votes whatsoever.

SPUD

p.s. All this discussion has caused me to listen to your song again as well, and I quite like it. Maybe not BEST...

Oh Spud, your wisdom is unmatched. Some might even go as far as to say that you truly are the limit.

Stu wrote:Getting zero votes for the second time is a bit of a downer. Oh well, next time! 8)

Votes really mean nothing. A win is nice for sure, but eventually you'll just get used to getting no votes. I have. Unless of course you plan on getting as good as Melvin, Merisan or Deshead. Then votes become pocket change.

Stu, what I'm about to say is not directed at you, I don't want this to come across as me trying to condescendingly pat you on the head. I'm just sharing my own views on not getting votes.

When I think about great people that I admire, most of them are (as I once heard Regina Spektor articulate in a very nice way) like earthworms that take in the earth in front of them as they blindly follow some strange path and the product of their existence in this world is the music, art , invention and discovery that they leave behind. It's just a function of existing for them that's as certain as breathing, and while acknowledgement is definitely aggressively sought after and it makes their lives that much more rich and charmed, most would toil away in anonymity. They are at their best when they're chasing some path into the unknown that they find interesting.

Anyway that's the sort of thing I tell myself when I put a lot of myself into some creative pursuit and noone notices, that it doesn't matter because I'm exploring my own abilities. Or as Alan Watts put it, it's not about getting to some goal or achievement, it's the dancing you're supposed to be doing along the way.

My own creative angst is less about getting recognotion per se than about having people with whom to directly share the creative process. I think I need witness and recognition of having gone through the process and being able to share what it was like. I once had a friend with whom I created things endlessly. And since I moved I've lost that and it's like I'm artistically amputated. Anytime I go to create something I've got this phantom pain where a functioning limb used to be that knew how to have fun and create and just enjoy the making of things. The good news for me is that there is hope for those who suffer from phantom pains.

mico saudad wrote:I don't want... to come across as... [condescending]... people that I admire... are... like earthworms... music, art, invention and discovery... as certain as breathing... rich and charmed... I put a lot of myself into... creative pursuit[s]... exploring my own abilities... my own creative angst... I think I need... recognition... I'm artistically amputated... phantom pains[/url].

Clearly, we all want votes.

I'm kidding with you!

Looks more like William Shatner provided that quote for you, Melvin!

mico saudad wrote:I once had a friend with whom I created things endlessly. And since I moved I've lost that and it's like I'm artistically amputated. Anytime I go to create something I've got this phantom pain where a functioning limb used to be that knew how to have fun and create and just enjoy the making of things.

May I suggest a mirror box with a picture of your friend with the mouth cut out. Then simply tape it on the mirror and align your mouth up where you cut his out and tell yourself how awesome and creative you are whenever you are making new music. Eventually you won't need the mirror box and just the sound of your own voice stroking your ego will relieve the phantom pain.

......next caller, you're on the air with BLT in the morning.

I think you (perhaps intentionally, for the purposes of humor) missed his point. Mico Saudad is a true collaborator. When he came to the studio to record his "Radio Ready", he had a concept, some lyrics, and some changes in mind. He involved me, Marcus, and Mad Dog creatively without telling us what to do. He expected us to figure out our roles and contribute. The bass line that I played is totally mine, for example. The Marcus part was totally created by Marcus. And Mad Dog had to provide his own dance call. It's not empty praise he is looking for. It's synergy. I can totally relate to what he loves (and misses) about working that way. It's a gas.

SPUD