The Song Fight Bulletin Board

jack shite wrote:

fluffy wrote:I'm not clueless about why people are offended nor am I trying to rationalize its use, I'm just wondering what's so bad about it in this context. I also think it's a bit harsh to consider me to be a huge asshole for trying to stand up for someone's artistic expression. (It's not like I use that phrase, nor do I think it's appropriate in conversation, but as an <em>artistic statement</em> it can have valid uses. IMO, this is one of them. But mostly I'm playing devil's advocate.)

Out of curiosity, can you explain why you take offense to it?

out of curiousity, is anyone else here offended by it?

Sorry to prolong this discussion, but I'm a bit curious. Obviously, from my cultural background, the 'n' word is much less emotionally charged - it's just a word I hear on American TV shows really - so I won't comment on it's appropriateness.

But how do people feel about the words use in say, Elvis Costello's Olivers Army "...one more widow, one less white nigger..." - I've actually seen that censored out at karaoke bars - I think it's an excellent line in the song - is it offensive? (excuse my ignorance).

I haven't heard the song in question here yet, but I guess to me, having read Huckleberry Finn and seen Showboat - I see the 'n' word as a word not to be used lightly, but one that can be very powerful in the right context.

When I propose the "banning" of the song, I do so because I have thought about these issues through out my whole life. I work with qutie a few people who hold racist views, and can't see past it, and I NEVER hesitate to tell them how illogical and full of shit they are. I got no problem with artistic freedom, but there is a line. For example, someone may think it 's "artistic" to impale baboo shoots in an iguana's torso. I don't.

as promised....

ns
well that was a lovely little piece of music.

queso de papa
nice production. has that JW/deshead thing going for it. it's well done for sure. this would be great to have some offsetting (maybe response sort of) vocals doing harmony as the singing stays pretty much in the mids. right where everything else seems to be. the second guitar riffing, and especially that wicked bass riffing off the progression is very nice. not so keen on the breakdown at the end, and this could really use a bridge or chorus. but this is a pretty solid song all the way around.

deshead
ok, so maybe you're not queso de papa. the arrangement has a very warren zevon feel to it. but with your singing, you do a spot on toad the wet sprocket. nice tune. there's really nothing to not like here for me, and the female vox are very nice touch.

the songfight orchestra
most excellent. beautiful acapella, with well thought out harmonies, and you nail them. plus, i've listened to this as part of the whole and it fits really great.

lonbobby
not sure about the harmonica parts, but i thoroughly enjoyed everything else about this track. now if you'd used a melodica instead of harmonica, you'd have gotten my vote. fo sure. i do like the vocoder stuff, you work that well. and production is excellent as usual. very nice job lonbob.

the hip tripper
well how you can you go wrong with you two. it's kind of cool to hear this after lonbob's track as there are definite similarities. killer mix! this is really excellent all around, pro quality production and superb execution. i love all the little touches you toss in the mix. the attention to detail. best so far i think.

hillbilly
i had a problem with the lyrics.

abecedarian
did you get a new mic? the vocal recording on this is great. is that a harmonium over the "it's too late" part? once those harmony vocals come in, it's buttah. odd ending though. but well done indeed.

diathetic obfuscation
this is pretty cool in a goth-light sort of way. the spoken word stuff actually works ok here, and normally i hate that sort of stuff. hahahaha, it just dawned on me that this has to be obscurity's mix. when that first guitar kicked in, i thought "man, that's obscurity's MIDI guitar if i ever heard it...". i dig it.

the red ballon
this is a trainwreck. welcome to songfight.

faves: i really liked the ns track but wish it had words and was mixed louder. i also really liked lonbob's track minus harmonica plus melodica. SFO was teh awesome. but the hip tripper takes it for me.

THANKS JACK!

I like the Hip Tripper...shoulda thought of that.

jack shite wrote:this is getting ridiculous. you can take your artistic context and shove it up your bunghole. just because his name on the boards is "hillbilly", doesn't mean that's what he is. is The Hip Cola really a Hip Cola? or is Leaf really a leaf?.

I need to listen to this song. From what I'm <i>reading</i>, it sounds like the character IN the song is a hillbilly racist? If so, I don't feel that should incriminate the artist/songwriter/singer. What if we excommunicated every actor who has portrayed a character saying N***** in some movie?

------
(As I'm listening:)

Hurry up and begin, lyrics. Is it raining?

"I work like a..." sounds like the line everyone is referring to. If you're going to make the choice to use such a strong word, actually use it. It's like people in my creative workshop freshman year passing out stories that contained lines like, "Oh, dear G-d!" This is just pussying out at the last minute, imho. If you have an issue PHYSICALLY producing the word, then find another choice.

I didn't find this very offensive, but that's probably because he has trouble singing a hard G, apparently. There's not enough other material in the song that makes me think, "Wow, this character such is a dumb hick," so your word choice comes across as a tad disjointed.

I think the outrage needs to simmer down; I think most of us agree that, although it was an artistic choice, it wasn't a good artistic choice.

For anyone who hasn't noticed, Bortwein cleverly alluded to his previous art "Pass/Fail":

Gemini6Ice wrote: I think the outrage needs to simmer down;

hmm, I think it already has...see above.

TheHipCola wrote:hmm, I think it already has...see above.

Then maybe I need to simmer down. ^_^

Gemini6Ice wrote:It's like people in my creative workshop freshman year passing out stories that contained lines like, "Oh, dear G-d!" This is just pussying out at the last minute, imho. If you have an issue PHYSICALLY producing the word, then find another choice.

Yeah, Jewish law is totally pussy.

15-16 puzzle wrote:

Gemini6Ice wrote:It's like people in my creative workshop freshman year passing out stories that contained lines like, "Oh, dear G-d!" This is just pussying out at the last minute, imho. If you have an issue PHYSICALLY producing the word, then find another choice.

Yeah, Jewish law is totally pussy.

I don't believe Jewish law is so much about SPELLING "God" as it is about not using the name in vain. If you type, "G-d," you're just as much indicating a use of "God" in vain as if you were to actually type, "G-d." If someone refrains from using the name in a story in order to adhere to Jewish law, I'll respect that. I don't respect a half-breaking of "the law" just to get by on a technicality under a deity's eyes.

Yeah, and like, when I was in my religious schooling (at a conservative synagogue), I was taught that "God" wasn't His real name anyway, so it didn't really matter, as long as I didn't write "Yehova" or "Yahweh" or whatever in the original Hebrew. And even then, those were just kind of nicknames for Him, since His "true" name was lost to time or something, leading to experimental films like Pi.

Though, the reason I was taught for not actually spelling His name out wasn't to avoid taking it in vain, but to avoid throwing it out in the trash. (Similarly, we were forbidden to wear any ceremonial clothing in the bathroom, and there was a little nook outside for storage.)

Speaking the name of God is different from saying "I swear to God", which is different from saying "goddamnit", which is different from writing out the name of God. Just because there are similarities between the acts doesn't mean that someone who does one, but not the others is "half-breaking" a religious law.

Not writing out the name of God has nothing to do with not taking God's name in vain.

Though this is the sort of thing where if you ask 10 different rabbis, you'll get like 15 different answers, most of them phrased in the form of a question.

15-16 puzzle wrote:Speaking the name of God is different from saying "I swear to God", which is different from saying "goddamnit", which is different from writing out the name of God. Just because there are similarities between the acts doesn't mean that someone who does one, but not the others is "half-breaking" a religious law.

Not writing out the name of God has nothing to do with not taking God's name in vain.

Yes, but you're misunderstanding me. I'm not saying that saying "God in His heaven" is the same as writing, "I swear to God," on paper. I'm saying that I feel that writing "G-d" is just technically avoiding writing "God."

If the law includes not saying it aloud in vain, such as in "Goddammit," would you argue that someone who says "Goddammit" amid intentional coughing or who says it as "G'dammit" is not breaking the law? I think it's the equivalent. It's just not having the guts (or disrespect, if that's your view) to say the word clearly.[/i]

racial slur debates. freedom of speech debates. theology debates.

isn't this a review thread?

jack shite wrote:racial slur debates. freedom of speech debates. theology debates.

isn't this a review thread?

Okay, yeah, I participated in this fight, but I'll give my reviews, starting with myself:

Gemini6Ice: I agree with your views, but you should try to express them more clearly. Also, the "art fight" interruption really distracted me from your point.

jack shite: You got to the combatant mode very quickly. There wasn't much of an opening riff in your comments. I also like the sudden guitar at the end. I was amused.

fluffy: You totally took a different route on this than everyone else did. But it worked. Your chorus really seems to embody the spirit of Song Fight!

leaf:Are you really a leaf? That's so cool.

j$: Yours was MUCH, MUCH too short.

(I reviewed the actual SONGS once, but I pissed too many people off with my opinions, so I decided never to do official reviews of the tracks anymore.)

Gemini6Ice wrote:Yes, but you're misunderstanding me. I'm not saying that saying "God in His heaven" is the same as writing, "I swear to God," on paper. I'm saying that I feel that writing "G-d" is just technically avoiding writing "God."

shoot. crap. dagnabbit. darn. fudge! drat. dang. geez.

Jehosaphat!

Clapton!

Eric?

Gemini6Ice wrote:Eric?

If you're going to say "Erik" don't use a stupid perversion to make it seem "clean." Jeeze.

Gemini6Ice wrote:Yes, but you're misunderstanding me. I'm not saying that saying "God in His heaven" is the same as writing, "I swear to God," on paper. I'm saying that I feel that writing "G-d" is just technically avoiding writing "God."[/i]

I'm not misunderstanding you, I fully understand that you yourself have misunderstood something. "Taking God's name in vain" only refers to spoken words, not to written ones. Just because there are rules about spoken words, doesn't mean that there are the same rules for written ones. If there is a rule (which as fluffy has pointed out, is questionable depending on who you ask) which says "Don't write out the name of God" then writing "G-d" follows the rule. The rule as I understand it isn't "Don't talk about God", rather it's "Don't write out his name".

I have never in my life heard someone cough while saying God or say g'damnit to avoid having to actually say the name of God.

I will do reviews shortly.