Drumming without a Drummer

[2dogs]

Ok, I have a quick question. Do you have an understanding of song structure? Or at least in the genre of music you are into writing?

The quick answer to this is "Not really". But I'm hoping that I'll catch on at some point. I'm a year from retirement. I'll have lots of time then if I haven't caught on before then

This is causing me all kinds of grief as you might imagine, so I would do well to stop, learn and then get back to creating.

Cheers,

[jeff robertson]

On a very similar note to this beatboxing stuff, hopefully so similar that nobody makes me make another thread, what do the people in this thread use for humming a melody and converting it to MIDI notes?

Reaper comes with a VST (Reatune) that will do it but I assume there are better ones.

[Billy's Little Trip]

Ok, I have a quick question. Do you have an understanding of song structure? Or at least in the genre of music you are into writing?

The quick answer to this is "Not really". But I'm hoping that I'll catch on at some point. I'm a year from retirement. I'll have lots of time then if I haven't caught on before then

This is causing me all kinds of grief as you might imagine, so I would do well to stop, learn and then get back to creating.

Cheers,

Oh, ok. Because I remember in jr high school when my friend and I were going to be rock stars. Our songs were all over the place and really didn't have any specific layout. Then we took music as an elective class in 7th grade. It was slow for us because we already played guitar and thought we were awesome. But what we learned in that class was something we never even considered. We learned to arrange music. What that teacher taught us is still used by me today. He said to always start arranging your song with one simple structure. Then from there customize it how ever you feel it should be. Because when you are working together as a band, everyone needs the same terms so that you are speaking the same language. Not word for word, but something like that.

As I posted as an example on the previous page. That structure that he told us to always start with for a rock song is:
verse>chorus>verse>chorus>bridge>verse>chorus>chorus

I still today always start with that structure and then expand and tweak from there, as I'm sure many do.

[HeuristicsInc]

On a very similar note to this beatboxing stuff, hopefully so similar that nobody makes me make another thread, what do the people in this thread use for humming a melody and converting it to MIDI notes?

Melodyne can do that. I have done so on occasions.
-bill

[2dogs]

Well Billy, this prompted me to look around for songwriting info and I found this sitehttp://www.songwritingfever.com/songwri ... arted.html. Which will eventually lead me back to drumming without a drummer. Ok this topic is making me dizzy, I need a beer.

Sorry about the off topic folks, but you can all feel good about teaching an old fart new tricks.
cheers

[Billy's Little Trip]

Well Billy, this prompted me to look around for songwriting info and I found this sitehttp://www.songwritingfever.com/songwri ... arted.html. Which will eventually lead me back to drumming without a drummer. Ok this topic is making me dizzy, I need a beer.

Sorry about the off topic folks, but you can all feel good about teaching an old fart new tricks.
cheers

Wow, that really is songwriting 101.

[ujnhunter]

fuck structure! oops... ot.

[AJOwens]

How do you feel about using a drum program if you know how to play the drums?

This is what stops me. I have Reason Adapted (a pared-down version or Reason that came with my MIDI controller), and I gather that you can lay down some pretty neat stuff -- if you have the patience to figure out the controls and then do the editing. But I can play drums, and it seems so much easier just to get some sticks and hit the heads.

I tried a pathetic little four-pad box from Yamaha, about a foot square. No way. Playing drums is a full-body experience. Fortunately I bought it used, so I'm not out much. I've arranged for a low-end e-kit for Christmas. (Any reviews on the Yamaha DTExplorer?)

Am I alone in this? Or do I have an exaggerated idea of how much trouble it is to lay down an appropriate series of loops and fills in a program?

[nyjm]

http://www.iua.upf.es/~ahazan/BillaBoop/

*drool*

Ahhh, damn. There's no download. (Is there?)

[2dogs]

. (Any reviews on the Yamaha DTExplorer?)?

I've got one of those Jim. Nice simple machine but very limited. It has basic e-kit functionality. So if you want something that has the ability to do rim shots or grab the crash to dampen the sound. The DTX won't do that for you. A Roland TD3 and up would be the way to go. But if you want to use it to trigger midi in your DAW then its just fine. Although you better make sure the DAW you have will recognize it. Yamaha uses an unconventional midi format and not all programs recognize it. Logic works fine with it because it has a learn feature. I also tried several software programs to see if they would recognize the DTX midi and most didn't. The only one that I found to work was BFD. EZdrummer certainly didn't. So make sure the software you use can learn otherwise you'll play the kick and get a crash and that sort of thing.

The DTX will need a nice thick rubber mat to stay in its place so prepare for that. My walnut flooring is not as new as it once was... You will also need a long USB cable. Cool thing with that unit is that you can plug in your MP3 player and play along. You can program user kits but there are very fewspots and you cannot import new ones. Every pad is programmable though so that offers playing possibilities. If I were to buy again I'd get a Roland TD3. They use standard midi format and the capabilities are significantly better for nearly the same price used. If you still get it,(used) I wouldn't pay more than $550 including shipping. I wouldn't pay new price again, personally.

[AJOwens]

2dogs wrote:

I've got one of those Jim. . .

(meaning a DTExplorer drum kit.)

Thanks for the tips, 2dogs. I started another thread about this.

[roymond]

How do you feel about using a drum program if you know how to play the drums? Am I alone in this? Or do I have an exaggerated idea of how much trouble it is to lay down an appropriate series of loops and fills in a program?

I do the loops and programming because I'm not a drummer, I live in a small apartment, I record at night and I don't own a drum set. I do use various hand percussion, though. I would kill (somebody, no doubt) to be a drummer and have the equipment, or to know someone who worships me to the point of always being available to lay down the beat on my songs whenever I needed.

That said, I don't think I'd get the textures and beats I do if I used live drums. It would be better, perhaps...but in a different sort of way.

[Lord of Oats]

I started off by making crappy loops that sounded like crap. I got a friend to help with the drum programming for my first SF entry. Then, at some point, I got drums. Later on, I started recording them. These sounded like crap, for a few primary reasons.

1. My drum kit is actually a piece of crap. It was the cheapest one I could buy.
2. Engineering is not my bag. I find it ridiculously difficult and tedious.
3. The hardware I own is limited to two simultaneous inputs. That doesn't allow for enough microphones to properly record drums.

Even given all that, I find the entries I sent in that had live drums to be light years beyond the ones where I was trying to fake drums. But I moved and left the drums behind. I miss them dearly.

Around the time I started recording drums, I had an epiphany. Computer drums don't sound like drums, and furthermore, they shouldn't have to. If what I was capable of producing sounded like a drum machine, why not write songs where a drum machine would be appropriate accompaniment for the other instruments? I don't believe there's really a good substitute when live drums are what the song calls for. Consequently, I've written very different songs than I would have, had I had access to drums. I've gotten into EDM primarily because the tools I had were more conducive to its construction than to other types of music. Somehow, I've never actually created the epic synth-rock that I thought I'd end up pioneering due to my interests and my circumstances. But cool things have happened.

In conclusion, my mind has room for three options:

1. Accept your destiny as a drum-machine jockey.
2. Learn to play and record drums.
3. Sample and loop like a beast.

I do my best to use all three of those approaches.

As per usual, I probably haven't actually contributed anything useful here.

[roymond]

As per usual, I probably haven't actually contributed anything useful here.

Actually, Oats, that was your greatest contribution to date.

[Märk]

As I posted as an example on the previous page. That structure that he told us to always start with for a rock song is:
verse>chorus>verse>chorus>bridge>verse>chorus>chorus

I still today always start with that structure and then expand and tweak from there, as I'm sure many do.

Close, but I go verse/verse/chorus/verse/chorus/bridge/chorus. That is why my songs all sound the same.

[Billy's Little Trip]

As I posted as an example on the previous page. That structure that he told us to always start with for a rock song is:
verse>chorus>verse>chorus>bridge>verse>chorus>chorus

I still today always start with that structure and then expand and tweak from there, as I'm sure many do.

Close, but I go verse/verse/chorus/verse/chorus/bridge/chorus. That is why my songs all sound the same.

Yeah, that's one of my favorites for my slower bbm hard/heavy songs. It lets me hit hard and slower, but keeps me well under 4:00. I only have about 6 or 7 base layouts that I use, then I try to mix it up from there with nifty intros, contrasting bridges and a cool outro.
The one I'm doing right now is:
verse/*micro bridge/verse/chorus/bridge/verse/chorus/chorus

*Micro bridge for lack of a better name. It's basically when I want to separate the first two verses with a little something, so it's half the count of my chorus but not quite the same as my chorus and different from the bridge. .... if you know what I mean.

[LML]

All those PC programs for drums are dandy, but where are the apple programs? I'll tell you. There are none. If there are, I have yet to find them, and I hope I'm wrong and someone posts one up here, but I have my doubts. I know what your smart ass is thinking, "Use a pc!" Well I'm sorry, but the fact is I have a free program that came with my mac that I use and I'm not about to buy/download/waste my time with another program on a computer I'm not comfortable using for music. Maybe you weren't thinking that and I jumped you, reader. But that's what my opinion is, and I'm sticking to it.

[Rabid Garfunkel]

Reason. Riffworks. Drumcore. Melody Assistant. The MIDI track(s) in your sequencer application.

They're out there.

[LML]

I don't have the money to buy any of those programs, and it's moderately difficult to find a mac rip of it, but I'll try. I know there are programs out there, but you can't get to them without a great deal of time and effort.

[Rabid Garfunkel]

Melody Assistant is $25... and the demo's free.

Scroll to the "Create a drum break" section and extrapolate.

[LML]

Melody Assistant appears to be a music writing software that records notes. I'm looking for drumming software. Add to that I can't read music.

[Rabid Garfunkel]

Add to that I can't read music.

Oh. Well, good luck then.