The Song Fight Bulletin Board

I think I did consider that -- see my second paragraph. And if the "mobilizing" part is true, we would expect those bands to score high on this list.

And, hey, we're just playing around here. We shall not reveal any absolute truths today.

LMNOP wrote:Others may generate greater-than-usual interest within the songfight community itself.

this is certainly true. sometimes i am busy and take a few weeks off of reviewing, but if i see something in particular, like "oh look octothorpe did a new song" or "hey the frontalittle squad is at it again" or something, i might be more inclined to make time for reviewing that week.

I still don't count Nil's loss in the new ABCD Puppies fight.

You know, for the record.

(Okay, I wanted to say something in this neat thread, but none of the charts have me.)

john m wrote:I still don't count Nil's loss in the new ABCD Puppies fight.

Agreed.

deshead wrote:

tviyh wrote:furthermore, WreckdoM's entering streak may have been interrupted by the "zombie son" fight -- somehow their song got misnamed as "geoffrey glass" instead of "WreckdoM".

If you count that one, and the Mosquito one, WreckdoM's in their 47th consecutive week (starting with Upcoming Downtime/Lizard Wizard/Blueberry Hassle.) And FWIW, the Upcoming Downtime fight was a week ago this Sunday. So, uh ... happy anniversary.

Wow you noticed! Thanks! Hard to believe it's been a year already. The 47th week comment is accurate, pretty early on we set a personal goal to make it a whole year with a submission per week. I had no idea we weren't supposed to go past 26 though, sorry about that. I have a lot of respect and admiration for the mighty Octothorpe and certainly did not mean to insult them.

Leaf wrote:a really awesome spreadsheet ...or better yet, report would have to include some kind provable stat for every songfighter...

OK, here's one.

Most cumulative votes for 5th-place finishes in 2-word fights:
28 - Leaf 62 (3 5th-place finishes)
25 - Doctor Worm (2 5th-place finishes)
24 - King Arthur (3 5th-place finishes)
22 - Abominominous (3 5th-place finishes)
22 - WreckdoM (3 5th-place finishes)
20 - Sven Mullet (2 5th-place finishes)
17 - Level Nivelo (3 5th-place finishes)
16 - The Landfills (2 5th-place finishes)
15 - Octothorpe (2 5th-place finishes)

YA!!!

john m wrote:(Okay, I wanted to say something in this neat thread, but none of the charts have me.)

Well, you're in second place for the Leaf62 award. And here's another one you can aspire to:

Most fights with nothing less than a 5th-place finish:
31 - Frankie Big Face
19 - Squirrel Damage
18 - Doctor Worm
12 - The Frontalittle Squad
11 - Xenon Light
10 - Redcar
10 - Patrick Clayton
9 - Broken Class
8 - Gil Sans
7 - Brick Pig
7 - R. Mosquito
7 - The Cow Exchange
7 - The Shortcakes
7 - TV's Kyle

LMNOP wrote:The question is: who consistently attracts the most "friends"?

Heh, I wondered about that one myself, but I couldn't get my head around the "expected vote count" calculation. (The trend graph above came from one attempt at it.) Your solution makes perfect sense, and I like it so much, I'll even use your nomenclature

First, here's the complete list of fights that qualify as 'friendly' (where TotalVotes exceeds ExpectedVotes by >10)

The 5 most recent:
Red Skates: Expected 92.80, Received 119
The Pawnbroker's Stepdaughter: Expected 82.80, Received 111
Things To Do In New York: Expected 89.25, Received 122
Ninja Gang: Expected 92.70, Received 111
When it Snowed: Expected 88.85, Received 137


Here is the complete list of Songfight artists with their calculated LMNOP F-Factor®. There's a lot of data in there!

Some highlights:
I think a lot of those numbers make sense intuitively. Like tviyh just said, The Frontalittle Squad get people voting!

jack shite wrote:total songfights: 59 (i think)

Holy crap, that's awesome!

Any idea who's been in the most fights (whether as themselves or in a collab?)

Geoff WreckdoM wrote:pretty early on we set a personal goal to make it a whole year with a submission per week

So what's next for the WreckdoM boys?

So, you're saying Octothorpe and I actually drive voters away?

fluffy wrote:So, you're saying Octothorpe and I actually drive voters away?

Not at all. To say that, we'd have to calculate the "attraction/repulsion factor". For each fight you participated in, take the actual votes minus the expected votes. Average all the results. Whoever has the lowest score (that is, the greatest negative) is the most repulsive songfighter in the world. *wink*

deshead wrote:Most cumulative votes for 5th-place finishes in 2-word fights

Yeah! This is what we need! More of these!

Is the number of expected votes just calculated based on the regression of that horribly-correlated size vs. votes graph?

Also, shouldn't you sort that table based on the ratio of actual votes to expected votes, rather than based on the number of expected votes? After all, getting 9 votes more than an expectation of 10 means a lot more than getting 9 votes more than an expectation of 2000. Either way, WWNMOIS should be the clear winner.

fluffy wrote:Is the number of expected votes just calculated based on the regression of that horribly-correlated size vs. votes graph?

No. The table is by month with a single variable (number of entries). The regression was by song, considering entries for that song and entries for other songs in the same week. Of course if we want to know exactly how many votes should be expected, we should also consider who's gigging on the weekend, whether school's in or out, what's on TV and how many of our kids have the flu.

fluffy wrote:Also, shouldn't you sort that table based on the ratio of actual votes to expected votes, rather than based on the number of expected votes?

I don't think so. As Gertrude Stein kinda said, "9 votes is 9 votes is 9 votes." If you brought (or repulsed) 9 people, that number shouldn't get diluted just because it happens to be a big fight. Of course, our expected range is, what, maybe 70 to 100 or so, so I'm not sure it would make much of a difference.

perhaps i'm really stupid or something, but...

deshead wrote:PFAECount FFactor
5 1.0000000000000
etc etc

huh???

It's not just you.

deshead wrote: Most cumulative votes for 5th-place finishes in 2-word fights:

Now that's what I call a baseball statistic! In honor of watching baseball with my fiancee. Those announcers will comment on anything!
Now I want a category of my own too.
-bill

heuristics needs statistics.



Couldn't resist.

deshead wrote: Most fights with nothing less than a 5th-place finish:
31 - Frankie Big Face

How is it that you know such things? When I did most of those fights, number of votes and placement wasn't made often made public. Anyway, I like being the best at something, so thanks. You probably aren't including my no-less-than-5th-place finishes as Frankie Pig Face, Puffy C and the Southern Baptist Pigface Choir, John Benjamin Big Face, Brainsocket, Juan Carlos de la Cueva Castianeda Oliveros and, most recently, Mellified Man.

You know...for the record.

deshead wrote:Here is the complete list of Songfight artists with their calculated LMNOP F-Factor®. There's a lot of data in there!

OK i don't claim to understand how this is all worked out, or that the only reason for an unexpectedly high (whatever that means) number of votes is the attractiveness of a particular fighter .... but I like it! Could someone explain it to me in layman terms? Also can I add all my collabs and stuff together and get an overall average of my 'appeal'?

j$

deshead wrote:Any idea who's been in the most fights (whether as themselves or in a collab?)

I would imagine it's Glenn Case, but for the record -

From Nov 2003 until last week (including 'SD&SU'), the j$ house of hits has produced / lent its vote-crippling skills to -

Johnny Cashpoint (37)
Johnny in the Corner / Yoko Oh No! (5)
Dollar Bill & the Inkpoints (4)
Transatlantic Fight Club (3)
Suave Noise Youth (3)
Masters of Grip (2)
Hoosenbergler (2)
The Voice inside Johnny's Head (1)
Mc Shatner-Boy(1)
Benny Cemoli (1)
Boy 'n' Catarrh (1)
Says Howard Siijac (1)
The Grippos (1)
Solyent Spuds (1)
The Glatex Love (1)
Chopshop (1)
Marcus Kellis (I wrote his 'Waiting Takes Time) (1)

Which makes 66 solo & collab. 0 for 66! Hooray! And that's only in 61 'fight weeks' ...

j$

j$ wrote:Could someone explain it to me in layman terms?

The point is that we generally expect a certain number of votes per fight, but some fights receive way more. The table helps answer the question "are any of the spikes the result of specific fighters who consistently attract more people to vote?"

So:
A "Friendly Fight" is one which received more votes than expected.

A "potentially friend-attracting entry" (or PFAE in the chart) is any entry in a friendly fight that received 10 votes or more. That number's a little arbitrary, but we're looking for patterns rather than proof.

Each artist's "F-Factor" is their ratio of PFAE to total fights. It's a ratio, so the values range from 0 to 1. At the '0' end are artists who have never received more than 10 votes in a Friendly Fight, or were never in a Friendly Fight to begin with. At the '1' end are artists who are always in Friendly Fights, and always receive more than 10 votes.

(All of this with the standard caveat that we don't have vote counts for anything before March, 2003.)

In your case, when entering as "Johnny Cashpoint", you've twice received more than 10 votes in a friendly fight, but you've been in 17 fights (for which we have vote counts), so your ratio is 2:17, or 0.0555555. It's a low number, so that means you're probably not rigging the vote. Or at least not doing it consistently. Clever!!

frankie big face wrote:How is it that you know such things? When I did most of those fights, number of votes and placement wasn't made often made public.

Ya, so I took a liberty with the numbers. I decided that, since rankings weren't given pre-Let's get Naked, nobody technically finished less than 5th place.

frankie big face wrote:You probably aren't including my no-less-than-5th-place finishes as Frankie Pig Face, Puffy C and the Southern Baptist Pigface Choir, John Benjamin Big Face, Brainsocket, Juan Carlos de la Cueva Castianeda Oliveros and, most recently, Mellified Man.

OK, I took a stab at this. First, here's the revised "FBF pwns j00 all" table:

Most fights with nothing less than a 5th-place finish:
38 - Frankie Big Face - COMBINED
31 - Frankie Big Face
19 - Squirrel Damage
18 - Doctor Worm
12 - The Frontalittle Squad
11 - Xenon Light
10 - Redcar
10 - Patrick Clayton
9 - Broken Class
8 - Gil Sans
8 - R. Mosquito


Johnny and Jack also gave me lists of their pseudonyms and collabs, so I updated the table above (linked again) with 3 new artists (Frankie Big Face - COMBINED, Johnny Cashpoint - COMBINED, and Jack Shite - COMBINED). All the individual entries are listed too, so you can look at the results any way you want. (In J$'s case, no change.)

(If anyone else cares, PM me a list of your aliases/collabs, and I'll update the charts.)

HeuristicsInc wrote:Now I want a category of my own too.

Sweet, you're the recipient of the eponymous "Bill's never been shut-out" award:

Most fights for artists who have never finished better than 4th place, but have also never received 0 votes:
13 - Heuristics Inc.
12 - Rabid Garfunkel
11 - Stevil
9 - Xiu House Rocks!
8 - Evermind
6 - Kingfresh
6 - Luke Henley
5 - Remopear
5 - Suave Noise Youth
5 - Freddielove
5 - Hillbilly

Congrats! (Trophies are on the table by the bar.)

LMNOP wrote:Not at all. To say that, we'd have to calculate the "attraction/repulsion factor". For each fight you participated in, take the actual votes minus the expected votes. Average all the results. Whoever has the lowest score (that is, the greatest negative) is the most repulsive songfighter in the world.

Heh, +/- is my favorite stat in hockey.

Accordingly, here's the complete list of Songfighters (including the 3 combined artists listed above,) and their average '+/-', which is the sum of the difference betwee the TotalVotes and ExpectedVotes in each fight involving the artist, averaged over all their fights. A positive number means the artist, on average, is involved in popular fights. A value of 0 means their fights attract exactly the expected number of votes, and a negative number means fewer people vote for fights involving that artist.

In other words, the further you are from 0, the more popular or unpopular your fights are. Or, for razzing purposes, the more attractive or repulsive you are as a fighter.


Here's the complete list. The top and bottom ends of the chart shouldn't surprise: MC Frontalot w/ Badddspellah is the most popular fighter, and Geoffrey Glass the least popular. Heh.

Some highlights, ignoring the 1- and 2-fighters:
Interpret as you will

One last thing: Jack and Johnny both mentioned the Yoko Oh No's, but I can't find them in the archive. Was that a Coverfight alias?

deshead wrote: Geoffrey Glass the least popular. Heh.

That's exactly what it says under my picture in my highschool yearbook.

(actually, the fight with the geoffrey glass entry-Zombie Son- had some problem with the vote tabulation, so likely the numbers coming from that fight are not accurate)

deshead wrote:One last thing: Jack and Johnny both mentioned the Yoko Oh No's, but I can't find them in the archive. Was that a Coverfight alias?

It's now listed as a Johnny in the Corner song - it was the first collab I did with JS, and Dre added some really cool stuff as well, but in mood and intention it was always a JitC song - I just didn't come up with the name until the following week. The MP3 in the Let it Be archive still says 'Yoko Oh! No!'

j$

deshead wrote:+/-

Man, that didn't quite work. All you need is one Zombie Son (with 5 votes) or one Romantic Cheapskate (with 700+) to throw a whole bunch of stats out of whack. Can you do a median instead of a mean? And I guess eliminate anyone with fewer than 3 fights...

deshead wrote:

HeuristicsInc wrote:Now I want a category of my own too.

Sweet, you're the recipient of the eponymous "Bill's never been shut-out" award:

Most fights for artists who have never finished better than 4th place, but have also never received 0 votes:
13 - Heuristics Inc.

Woo hoo! I was kinda keeping the "never been shut out" quiet in case the voters noticed and decided I needed to be taught a lesson
But I had no idea I'd be on top of that list!
In fact, even in my collabs I haven't gotten zero votes:
Brainpipe (3)
DB&tI (4)
Mechanical Mayhem (1)
...and some loop-donation to Chop Shop (?) and Suave Noise Youth (1).
Something to be proud of
Now, at remixfight, I've been shut out.
-bill