The Song Fight Bulletin Board

I have more to say and so many people have said so much deserving of response...

For now I will say that I liked Future Boy's entry so very much.

BSS – I think the thing about BSS songs is that I love the parts more than the whole. The little synth runs just kick so much ass. But the chorus that follows fails to “take things up a notch.” Female backing vocals are almost a distraction. I dunno. Hasn’t changed: the first BSS song I heard (Stomach For It) is still my favorite. (edit: ha ha, Stomach For It was actually the second one I heard. I stand corrected.)

BGM – This makes me think of the scene in Forest Gump where Jenny is about to jump off the balcony of the loft she was doing blow and blowing a dude. You know, the “Free Bird” scene. But then the disco breakdown hits. Awesome. I love all the keys floating around throughout the song as they really add texture to the tune. Wouldn’t be the same without them.

Billy & the Psychotics – It’s like surfer music on coke. Vocal delivery could be rougher, tougher. All the guitar parts coming in, going out, are cool. Is that DJRD hitting up an octave at 1:24, or is it just an octavizer? Either way, cool. Solo at 1:38 should be in some crazy Egyptian mode, not crust blues. Is this the bass tone that some people are whining about? I think it fits this tune. It’s so prominent, it can’t be too thuddy, it has to be a bit mid-rangy, otherwise it wouldn’t work.

C.Layne – The breakdown-y guitar bits remind me very much of Minus The Bear’s Omni. Are you using a delay/looper to do it or are you processing it in your workstation? Actually, what are you recording through? Tell me, now. I like all the individual bits but the song overall just isn’t striking me like your submission for Occupy My Heart did. Obviously, I like dark songs better, I guess this might just be to peppy. Great work, again, it just didn’t tickle my fancy.

Dejected Motives – Okay, you finally brought up your mastering levels. Problem is, now they’re almost too high. I don’t think I’m gonna have anything to add to this that everyone else won’t say. Blah blah, autotune, ho hum, recording levels, yada yada, off key, muddled delivery, Mikey likes it, 7 minutes, grrr argh.

Dirge – Acoustic guitars are too quiet. Just listened to this on the stereo in the living room and could barely hear the opening vocals. The tremolo guitar is a little too busy at times. I like it better when I back off on the picking. Someone said the solo sounds “wanky”, I think. Wow. It’s like the least wankiest solo I think I’ve ever played. I let this one breathe. As an individual song, the lyrics come across very odd. Per my discussion with Glenn, I dare you to use the word “retarded” and not have it sound odd. As I mentioned, this is the eighth story in JD Salinger’s Nine Stories. Someday I’ll have a song written for each. Given the context of the story, the word “retarded” works. Hope no one is offended. Ugh, distorted guitars have NO top end. Fuck, the song loses almost all its momentum as a result. My first attempt at background vocals, possibly ever, at 3:39. It worked well, the BGVs and the ride cymbal get some of that momentum back. I’d like to do more BGVs on subsequent songs. I almost didn’t have enough time to get them in. Glad I sacrificed mixing to do them.

DJ Ranger Den – I used to listen to Song Fights! all randomized and such. Now I just listen to them in alphabetical order. Given that change, your songs now (usually) immediately follow mine. I like that. Your tunes have a quiet intensity which contrasts nicely with my loud intensity (at least, that’s what I’m going for). This is the best work of yours I’ve heard yet. I think someone mentioned they wanted to hear this tune get a full band treatment. I would agree. Comparing Imperfectly and Out Of Range to Revelling/Reckoning and Educated Guess tells me that your songs would fucking kill with soft keys, a standup bass, and a simple three piece set. Not that this song doesn’t already kill. Best of the Fight.

Emperor Gum – Some cute moments, like the slightly out of tune guitar saying hello to the strings at 0:25. I feel like I’m in a karate dojo. Any reason you decided to have the “intro” encompass a third of the song?

Future Boy – This was a cute song. One that I don’t think I can get repeated listens out of, but I did enjoy the CRASH CRASH CRASH SMASH SMASH SMASH. Very clever and cool. This would be a neat closing tune on some concept album about some dude with amnesia running over the wife he doesn’t remember.

Hip Hop Anonymous – Can’t really say much. It’s like white Gravediggaz.

Klownhole – This is much closer to what you wanted to do than your submission for Has Been For Years. I know this because I am omniscient. The vocals performance is so much better this go around. I would dare say it’s perfect for this sludgy song. What changed in a few weeks? Nice work. The constantly meandering guitar line (0:26-0:50, 1:17-1:40) still distracts from the overall composition. I think I know what you were aiming for (I tried a similar bit on Has Been For Years) but it didn’t work again. Awesome bellows at 1:44 and again at 1:57. Okay, the noodly guitar that follows works now. When it’s on its own, it’s cool, in an anti-GIT way, but when it’s competing with your vocals it sucks. I would have liked the tune to end earlier or launch into one more chorus before fading out. Much, much improved!

Life in Decibels – Mm. The chorus phrasing is cool. Feels very 80s. Like a song that they would play in a club scene of a film adaptation of a Bret Easton Ellis novel. Can’t really come up with anything else.

Mom & Data – Led Zeppelin “Your Time Is Gonna Come”? Lenny Kravitz’ “Believe”? Type O Negative’s “My Girlfriend’s Girlfriend”? Okay, so all I’ve done is name three awesome rock songs that start with some kind of organ. (Actually, in “Believe” the organ is replaced with a Rhodes piano, then a bunch of cheesy strings. Whatever.) Point is, I love organ in pop/rock tunes. This is a bitchin’ tune. Cutesy delay guitar works really well. Keys (I think they’re keys) add layers, much like BGM’s keys. Vocals are very well delivered, too. All this would be lost if you didn’t have a strong, driving bass line to propel it all forward. I’d like to hear a mix of this where the kick wasn’t always hitting on the eights. This would not be out of place on a latter day Death Cab record. Fantastic song! Also best of fight.

Paco – How are you creating the warble sound? Very cool. Drums need to kick in sometime… It’s going on too long. 1:12 is too long to wait for something to happen outside of the warble sound. Hmm. There’s just not too much to this one. Try panning the background vocal left or right to give it some separation from the lead. Or EQ it differently.

Pigfarmer, Jr – Major props for going out of your GnG comfort zone. I like the effort! Still… Lyrics always seem to be about existence in suburban utopia, or, maybe in this instance, suburban dystopia? Try to veil some metaphors. Use a thesaurus – they’re awesome. Is there a bass on this track? If there is, can’t hear it. If not, you need one. Or some low register synths to fill out the lower spectrum.

Ripping Hammer – This is so weird. The bleepy bloopy sounds that come in at 0:52 are the same sounds The Gathering used on records in the late 90s and early 00s. Like, sorry man, if I hear that sound, all I can think about is Anneke Van Giersbergen’s voice, and unless you’ve got her singing for you, you’re effed in my book. One of the best bands ever. Can’t get into this at all.

Sonofsupercar – This is crazy. You’ve got a 90’s post-punk guitar sound going with a late 60’s punk vocal production. It’s like Love dressed up in Fugazi’s skin. Squeally guitar solo is perfect. FUCKING PERFECT! Maybe this could have benefitted from a more lo-fi drum sound? I dunno, it still sounds good. Great mixing, everything is in its place. Mmm, contrary to that, maybe reel in the top end on the guitar solo, it’s a tab piercing. Vocals are a high in the mix, too, but just a bit. I like the lecture going on in the back. Great tune.

Sportswriters – Okay, so now I know you can rock a bit. But you’re back to Simon & Garfunkel this week. I like the rock better. Not that I don’t like this, but I would never pull it out and show it to my friends. So the cool quotient is low. Production, composition, performance, emotion, thought quotients all very high. …you’re like Dream Theatre to me. I love everything metal. Death, Black, Thrash, NWOBHM, NWOSDM, Jazz, Doom, Sludge, all of it. Especially Progressive. But I always fucking hated Dream Theater. (Did they spell it Theatre or Theater? Whatever.) Even though they did everything that all my favorite progressive bands did (and maybe even did it better) they never had any fucking ATTITUDE! When you’re 15 and trying to decide which record to spend your entire savings on (all $10 of it), the attitude of the group will probably decide a winner. When you’re 31 and trying to decide which band to spend all your free time on (all 45 minutes of it), the attitude of the group will probably decide a winner. The subject of your song is very, very cool. I admire you for picking it. Obviously it doesn’t lend itself to some snarly dude snarlin’ about all there is to snarl about. I just want to hear you get nasty some time. Next time?

TC Elliott – You’re Pigfarmer, right? This is like an electronic version of the songs you usually do, but much better. Is this about a vampire? Sleep all day, light of the moon, etc. This is a good tune. Going to half time with the drums for the chorus is a nice touch, provides a definite separation between verse and chorus. Good work on this one.

Wicked Cripple – Sorry, out of steam, wanting to do things other than review songs, so I’m gonna end it. I’m the asshole here.

frankie big face wrote:Mom & Data – ...It needs a hook badly.

bgm – ...this song sorely needs a hook.

Billy and Denni - would you like to tackle this? Like was discussed about your guys bitchin' Has Been For Years tune, does every song really need to have a hook? Denni, I liked your statement that sometimes the "hook" is gently hinted at by all the surrounding instrumentation, like an outline. I think these two songs are catchy as hell even without a proper "hook".

Or is "hook" just synonymous for "I didn't like it but I can't really say why"?

dirgetheband wrote:

frankie big face wrote:Mom & Data – ...It needs a hook badly.

bgm – ...this song sorely needs a hook.

Billy and Denni - would you like to tackle this? Like was discussed about your guys bitchin' Has Been For Years tune, does every song really need to have a hook? Denni, I liked your statement that sometimes the "hook" is gently hinted at by all the surrounding instrumentation, like an outline. I think these two songs are catchy as hell even without a proper "hook".

Or is "hook" just synonymous for "I didn't like it but I can't really say why"?

I don't know about Billy. I know he can make hook in his sleep. I think I derail him lots.

I can tell you that I am a highly emotional writer. Sometimes this soars into a hook and it's awesome and sometimes it just grunts and growls in a monotone. During 'Occupy My Heart' and more so 'Has Been For Years' I was going through something. It's hard to talk about 'Has Been For Years' and I never listen to it because I think I sound out of control and ugly. This is what the song demanded. I don't know how I would change it if we did it again. The lyrics sound a little like 24-year-old me.

I think with your song it really seems like a situational painting to me. I would almost add another element to it, like a cello or keep the soloistic guitar with the jewel-like tones (do y'all call that "clean tone?" I don't know?! ) I think it perhaps wants for backing vocals.. so more duetty but not the whole way through. Something different in timbre to yours though. A differently textured male vocal, I am thinking. Just my brainrain here though, so I dunno

Not to be all akwardturtle, but little additions and more of a commonality or tie in between the contrasting sections would make the song blend better into that type of throbby and content filled noise that one likes having around when they are..engaging in vigorous naptime. Because you definitely do not want to hear hook when you are, uh.. hooking. At least, I don't. When I am writing a song, sometimes I think "am I trying to get them in bed, or are they already there?"

Ah, don't listen to me. I'm full of crap!! now I sure do have to do reviews. I've given Future Boy one sentence and you a book here!!! :S

EDIT: I am not saying that a good hook is Not Sexy. Just that there are times and places for things. I feel like Roymond might have posted something like that in that thread for one of those fights. At least, that was how I interpreted it; that you don't always need to raise the roof or whatever

RangerDenni wrote:Not to be all akwardturtle, but little additions and more of a commonality or tie in between the contrasting sections would make the song blend better into that type of throbby and content filled noise that one likes having around when they are..engaging in vigorous naptime. Because you definitely do not want to hear hook when you are, uh.. hooking. At least, I don't. When I am writing a song, sometimes I think "am I trying to get them in bed, or are they already there?"

I agree 100%. I'm thinking Jeff Buckley and early Sarah McLachlan, especially Jeff's "Everybody Here Wants You" and Sarah's "Witness". Neither song really has some hook that grabs your attention like a slap in the face. But they both dig in, and holy hell, do they ever dig deep, like a tumor or an addiction. I think the question I used to ask is "who's bed are they going to be in other than mine." I've always been a bit pessimistic, I guess, and that probably comes across as fairly obvious in my tunes. Hrumph.

I like your suggestion about creating a commonality. I used to record on one of those crazy huge 8-track Portastudios Tascam made like 72 billion years ago. They were cool. It let me get all the instruments in that I wanted, but I couldn't go crazy nuts. I still had to sit down and sketch out my idea of the song before I started programming drums and tracking and shit. I know the last few songs I've written sitting in front of that computer seem to be lacking a flow, a commonality (to borrow your term). I'm not saying that it causes my songs to be disparate parts, but it allows me to produce a finished product without first considering how the finished product will sound from beginning to end. Put more succinctly, it lets me put the cart before the horse and still get the cargo where it needs to go. Like the act of putting parts on top of parts on top of parts ends up being more important than having a kickass song that just... flows.

I think I'm gonna record my next Fight on my 4-track. Back to basics, maybe.

sonofsupercar,
I heart you so very much
So glad you are back!

re hooks

I know you didn't ask me, but...

I've sort of changed my mind on this over the years. I don't think I've ever written a song that didn't have a hook of some kind in it, good or bad, until this year, that is. Generally the hook's the first thing I write -- if I've got a hook I've got a song.

But I've come to think that not every song is a pop song that needs to fight it out on the virtual radio. There are other kinds of songs, and other kinds of hooks beside melodic ones. The problem with an obvious hook is that the whole song has to be structured around supporting it, and you end up sort of waiting around for it instead of listening to the whole thing.

Now to contradict myself: I do think that hooks are essential but I'd broaden the idea of 'hook' out into whatever it is that rewards the listener. That might be emotional intensity, a lyrical payoff, a musical complexity it takes a while to 'get'. And you might not get it on first listen. Some of my favorite bands take a few listens. Most/all of them in fact.

Neither of my entries for HBFY or this challenge had hooks, mostly because they were in ballad form that doesn't allow for a chorus. This week's has a theme & variations structure -- the chord sequence, melody and feel changes from verse to verse. That definitely makes them less radio/listener-friendly but it is quite freeing not to keep having to go back to a chorus, which really gets in the way of telling a story. Instead I tried, succesfully or not, to go for a lyrical punch at the end of each verse. I notice the bgm did the same thing with his this week, although his disco break was pretty hooky.

The danger of hooks is that when you zoom in you find a lot of the time they're just a V-I cadence with lipstick, which is about as interesting as a lukewarm cup of tea.

The danger is that when you write a hookless song, most of the time it *doesn't* have what a song needs to survive as a hookless song, so it's just crap.

So my warning bells absolutely go off when a song doesn't have a hook but sometimes it's a false alarm.

dirgetheband wrote:C.Layne – Are you using a delay/looper to do it or are you processing it in your workstation? Actually, what are you recording through? Tell me, now.

Macbook running Ableton, and a Saffire interface. Usually for clean guitars I just plug directly in. It was a single performance that I used twice on either side of the second verse. So it wasn't a loop necessarily, but I reused it when the second chorus comes back in.

Also, I felt like I needed to do something a little happier. My most recent album is full of grumpy, dark songs and I needed a break from biznizzzz.

dirgetheband wrote: Billy & the Psychotics – Is this the bass tone that some people are whining about? I think it fits this tune. It’s so prominent, it can’t be too thuddy, it has to be a bit mid-rangy, otherwise it wouldn’t work.

Firstly, thank you for enjoying the good parts and your recommendations. We pay attention to everything to look back when these songs get re-recorded for an album.
I believe sports was the only one that didn't care for the bass. Although I respect everyone's opinion, I'm one of those guys that if I hear a comment that makes no sense to me, it goes in one ear and out the other. Just like how you said that you liked how we came in and out with the guitar parts. The riffs through the song from start to finish, change up continuously with originality that I feel are pretty cool. Yet they were said to be bloviating. lol. Actually, I love that comment, but again, it doesn't make sense to me, so I can only enjoy the word bloviating and that's about it.
But as I said, I appreciate everyone that takes the time to listen and comment. And Sports does point out honestly things that do not jibe with him, which is what a review should be. If only the good things were pointed out, then we'd just go on our merry way with a big smile and continue doing the same crappy things over and over. But bias does have to be considered as well.

.....and don't get me started on the whole hook thing.

But bias does have to be considered as well.

What are you saying? Out with it! Use your words!

We're just strangers on the internet -- how could either of us possibly be biased against the other?

If you don't buy my comments that's great. Half the time I don't buy them myself completely. But don't drop snide little turds like that unless you are prepared to back them up.

Calm down, lol. By biased, I meant the kind of music a person prefers, not the person. And those weren't meant to be little turds, they were meant to be an answer to dirge's question about the bass line.
I clearly said I respect all opinions. I don't have to agree with them. And quite often I use them to improve.

And just a note. If you are looking for a PigPen circle jerk with me, it's not going to happen. i just don't care enough about things I have no control over.

Mr. Car wrote:Votes to:
Klownhole- the 11am slot of a 15 band concert at a filthy motor speedway in 1970. And that is freakin noteworthy.

This is the best and most accurate review of Klownhole I ever remember seeing. You win the reviewing portion of the competition.

Writing reviews while my brain is still fresh:

Berkeley Social Scene [vote]: This song is totally listenable, even catchy. As others have mentioned, I think the vocals are the weak part, especially during the chorus. It's clear that you're a little bit above your comfortable range there, so it's pitchier than I'd like. Although, double-tracking the vox there was a good call. I also find the phrasing in the chorus to be awkward, the way you've broken up the lyrics. I pretty sure you are saying this: the last afternoon was the worst, she wasn't who he thought he knew. In terms of putting space here, I think it only makes sense to do: the last afternoon / was the worst / she wasn't who he thought he knew. Whereas you're breaking it: the last / afternoon / was the worst / she wasn't who / he thought he knew. In particular, for me, this makes "was the worst" kind of sound like "what's the worst", which doesn't make sense at all. And I just realized the emphasis that the melody places on "he" is part of what bothers me. I think I'd do "he" as a pickup note and put "thought" on the beat where "he" currently is. Erin's counterpoint in the chorus is lovely, I wonder how it would feel if she sang the entire chorus? OH BUT THE GUITAR SOLO IS AWESOME.

bgm: ha ha, yes, this did sound really familiar the first time I listened to it and I think someone mentioned it's basically "Pop Goes The World"? That said, I like your delivery and performance. The "disco" break is fun, but I think what I would have done is kept the disco in there and slowly built the song up into a totally off the hook disco tune with louder vocals. Basically just build to a big discosplosion at the end. Like, the second time the "disco" comes back it just sounds understated and pansy, where the first time it comes off as more like some hipness creeping into your mellow song.

Billy & The Psychotics: This song is not at all my type of music, but I think it works well for what it is. Mostly I'm not a fan of the vocals. I might describe them as thin? I'm not sure, I can't think of a good word for what is bothering me, apologies. I really like how the bass sounds, though.

C.Layne [vote]: as usual you are expert at writing good songs. love the little ocarina, flutey sound. I might have gone a little tighter with the rhythm guitar in the section that starts at 1:31, maybe less reverb on it. this song really has a kind of Beta Band vibe to it. good glitchy breakdown.

Dejected Motives: I'm one minute in wondering how/why you stretched this one out to 7 minutes long. Big thumbs down to the auto-tune, it sounds horrible. Mostly this song sounds like a lot of out-of-tune stuff piled on top of each other, which makes it sound flat and meaningless. There is literally nothing really meshing together or engaging me.

Dirge: Why so low on the vox? At the beginning, at least, I'd get right up on that shit. I want it to sound like you're singing right into my ear. I think I'd probably do the entire song that way and totally skip on pushing the voice into the more whiney/angsty territory that you go with when the lyrics become "more intense". I'd bring up the solo guitar, too. Pretty bored with the song by 2:21, seems to drag along. Might not be the case if I found the vocals more compelling. You mentioned maybe going back to the 4-track to force you to plan out the song better. I think that's an excellent idea, but I also think you can just treat your computer as a 4-track so you can still work under the same constraint but with easier editing and effects capabilities.

DJ Ranger Den: closer, louder mic on the guitar, please! I think I like the chorus best because it's focused. You've really picked out a melody there and nail it. The verses just feel meandering to me. But then I'm not a huge fan of this kind of folky guitar-based singer-songwriter thing, so maybe don't listen to me. Thanks for the compliment on my track, btw.

Emperor Gum: There are lots of odd things about this song. It sounds like you are singing in a metal tub, possibly because you are. I hope this is just your vocal recording situation and not a type of reverb you chose on purpose. Things are oddly panned. Vocal is slightly off center, there's a violin way off to the left, a clarinet that's not in tune with the violin just off center to the left. Jangly chorused guitar in the background that sounds pretty thin. And I think there is a synth playing some kind of crappy string patch in there somewhere. I don't really have a problem with the instrumentation choices, though I'd probably ditch the synth. But the mix is pretty bad. I think the best thing would be to work on your mic'ing skills so that all of the instruments, including your voice, sound rich and close. Don't go so extreme with the panning. If you want to add space to an instrument, just use a touch of reverb. A little bit goes a long way. Don't settle for out-of-tune notes. Do as many takes as it takes to get a good performance out of each instrument. Maybe the actual song is good, but I can't really tell with all these other problems.

Future Boy: felt a little rushed on this one. Started late Friday night. But whatevs, excuses. Had to figure out how to record vocals again because I literally hadn't done it in over two years. It was frustrating. As punchy as the chorus is, the backing vox still didn't get to where I wanted them to. They still sound lazy to me. I think whoever suggested putting higher harmonies in there is dead on. I tried to do a little bit of that, but it sounded kind of shit, so I buried them.

Hip-Hop Anonymous: Not at all a fan of your "flow", your delivery if you will. There are some good rhymes going on, though I'm not really fond of a lot of the content. And too often you fall into the sing-songy trap.

Klownhole: I think I hear what you're going for. I don't think you are there yet and I don't like this kind of music enough to be able to like your song in spite of it not quite getting there.

Life In Decibels: This got a lot better when I turned it up really loud. What are you using for your drums and synths, I wonder why the recording is so quiet. Vocals could use work, of course, a good start might be to start double-tracking your vocals and to try to really hit all your notes solidly on pitch. Kill the drums right at the beginning of the piano "breakdown" starting around 2:45, they just sound odd there. Oh and why the pointless minute of silence at the end?

Mom & Data [vote]: this is a good, catchy song. the worst that can be leveled at this song is that it's maybe a little too typical indie-rocktronica, but I don't care, it's really well executed.

Paco del Stinko: man points for just going for it on that distorted guitar at the beginning. really not a fan of your voice, I'm sorry. actually the voice gets better when you go up high in the middle of the song. the phrasing on all the lyrics is too children's book for me. lots of: ba de ba de ba, ba de ba de bo. If that makes sense at all.

Pigfarmer Jr: Just not interesting. Not at all a fan of this kind of "spoken word" delivery. It just sounds horribly awkward.

Ripping Hammer [vote]: all of the lo-fi elements of this song fit together really well, good work there. really like the distorted organ bit.

Son of Supercar [vote]: somehow this song reminds me of the Beatles? I'm not sure why, maybe I'm way off there. Surprisingly melodic chorus. Guitar solo pretty cool, kinda ends abruptly. I have to vote for this song, I don't want to disappoint blue.

Sportswriters: I don't agree with Frankie that this should just go into 6/8 although I think it would probably work that way. I haven't listened to the version with no drums yet, but I suspect I will like it better for the reasons we've all already discussed. There is something exceedingly familiar about the chord progression and melody, but I can't exactly place it. It may only be bothering me because it has a very over-sincere, kind of saccharin-sweet, vibe to it that bothers me in this kind of "heartfelt" music. I understand that maybe you are being sincerely heartfelt, but this arrangement uses a lot of the "tricks" to make people get emotionally tugged along that have the exact opposite effect on me because I recognize them for what they are. In particular, I'm reasonably certain you are using auto-tune really effectively. The vocal has that "velvety" sound that it can provide when used tastefully. Ditch it, I say. If you think you sing too out-of-tune, just practice more or else embrace it.

T.C.Elliott: Not much to say about this one. Not terribly catchy, kind of awkward vocal lines here and there. These drums mixed with that guitar, doesn't work for me.

Wicked Cripple: I guess you are trying to be nerdcore? geekcore, perhaps? no, this is what Dr. Seuss would have sounded like if he rapped (not intended as a compliment)? mostly I really don't like the squeaky all-over-the-place delivery you're using. you're right though, the music is decent.

You have good ears, FB.

Future Boy wrote:There is something exceedingly familiar about the chord progression and melody, but I can't exactly place it.

Like bgm with Pop Goes the World, it was subconscious, but the meter and part of the melody (the 4-beat 'colder far than' phrase) is lifted from the turnaround of the Strangler's Golden Brown and the harmonic contour is very similar to Streets of Laredo, especially the 'bang the drum slowly' section.

I'm reasonably certain you are using auto-tune really effectively. The vocal has that "velvety" sound that it can provide when used tastefully. Ditch it, I say. If you think you sing too out-of-tune, just practice more or else embrace it.

I did two versions of this, one with AT and the other without. I honestly don't know which version I posted. I think I posted the non-AT one to music.mefi. I liked them both. The non-AT version had some little wobbles in it which I quite liked... it was really not far off at all. But you're right about AT giving that velvety feel and it's very seductive. Michael Bublé is a massive serial offender, as is Adele. Dear God, I just compared myself to Michael Bublé and Adele. I guess that means you are right.

I'm not an AT hater. It's actually helped my singing enormously by enabling me to see what's going wrong with my pitch, and relax more when tracking. In this case I used it more as an effect, and I was able to not use any chorus or doubling on the vocal as a result. I don't think it's any worse or better than either of those techniques. It's just another tool which you can overuse.

edit -- I think Autotune is the audio equivalent of a microwave oven. No chef will ever admit to using a microwave but here's the dirty little secret -- there is a microwave in every single top chef's kitchen I have been in (and I've been in a lot, including Gordon Ramsay's before he was famous). And they use them. But they are removed when the camera crews turn up. In the same way AT is used on pretty much every professional production you will ever hear. Quite often the artist will know nothing about it -- the engineer or his assistant just quietly does it when they are cleaning up the track to deliver to the mixer, maybe with a non-tuned track alongside just in case. And our ears have gotten used to that, so now we are much more pitch sensitive than we were.

edit2 -- I should point out I don't use it that much -- there was no AT on either of my previous entries, for example

If you are looking for a PigPen circle jerk with me, it's not going to happen.

You people are NO FUN.

Future Boy wrote: Billy & The Psychotics: This song is not at all my type of music, but I think it works well for what it is. Mostly I'm not a fan of the vocals. I might describe them as thin? I'm not sure, I can't think of a good word for what is bothering me, apologies. I really like how the bass sounds, though.

Yeah, my vox are pretty weak on this. I always seem to have an excuse, but I'll spare you, lol. At least you like the bass line.
Thanks, Mr. Boy.

sportswriters wrote:

If you are looking for a PigPen circle jerk with me, it's not going to happen.

You people are NO FUN.

now all I'm doing is wondering whether if it would be ... um...

(er...)
b$%*#tchy
...or not
to work PigPen Circle Jerk into a righteous band name! Tell you what. When you come around you can use it for your Psychotics tribute band name.

Everyone wins!!!
xxx
ps. thanks for the vote. altho i know that i accidentally deserved it. wish i could pull that shit on command.
pps. it's nice having you in the fray. keep the fun coming.

Future Boy wrote:

I also find the phrasing in the chorus to be awkward, the way you've broken up the lyrics.

That is my fault. I wrote the melody 1st and worked with the lyrics we had until something made sense and felt somewhat natural. You're totally right though, in my head I guess I was thinking (ignore this pause).
he also wrote:

OH BUT THE GUITAR SOLO IS AWESOME.

That is also my fault, thanks man! Personally this is one of my favorites of recent, I was bummed when it did nothing for Mr Sports. It's great to hear coming from a musician such as yourself!

Hey guys! I usually run out of time when doing Song Fights, so it was nice to get one in finally.Thanks for all the feedback! I didn't have very long to record and mix so all the 'live' part sound rough. Also, I thought I'd try recording in my tiny bathroom as an experiment...yeah, not great. I'm gonna change a few things and rerecord it tomorrow. Glad you all seemed to like the arrangement!

@frankie big face: I totally agree, 'out of tune' and 'bad vocals' really hurt this song.
@bgm: You called it, really effects driven guitar. Glad you liked the horns, soprano and bass clarinet in case you were wondering.
@Zbandit: lol, was I ever out of my vocal range! Need to fix that in version 2!
@sportwriters: Thank you! I shall try close mic'ing (sp?) when I rerecord, thanks for the suggestion.
@glenny: String quartet, soprano/bass clarinets, classical guitar. Agreed, the vocal melody needs work; I struggle with singing, I'll legitimately take "isn't that bad" as a compliment.
@Mr. Car: Don't know it, this is a TV show?
@Heine: Thanks! I sometimes feel if I could ever write a song fast enough to leave time to do solid production I might get somewhere...
@Pigfarmer Jr.: Ha! Its cool, I'd blame me for evoking Buster Keaton and then taking him away!
@dirgetheband: Just the way the song turned out. You don't like long intros in general, or did you think this one was too long?
@Future Boy: I agree with everything! I had like two hours or record and mix, nowhere near enough for me to do a good job. Just to clarify, you didn't like the fonts I used on the strings or you just didn't like the strings arrangement at all?

REVIEWS
Heads up, I have particular musical tastes, I don't like repetition, I love complexly large ensemble/band arrangements, ect. I also don't usually write reviews, but an eye for a good turn and all that. Last time I did I tried too hard to be nice, so this time I'll be honest. Feel free to hate me!

Berkeley Social Scene:
-Great song, love the synths

bgm:
-Don't like the Scissor Sisters style breakdown
-Overall the song is kinda bland
-On a technical level its immaculate, though

Billy & The Psychotics:
-Bass guitar is too loud
-Love the vocals, glad you kept the song neat, solid guitar work too
(This song reminds me of the credits song from Planescape Torment)

c.layne:
-Really enjoyed the mix of timbres on this, good beat too

Dejected Motives:
-Too long, doesn't progress, I'm not one to talk but vocals aren't great, can't stand heavy use of auto tune
-There's good guitar work buried in there!

Dirge:
-Needs more variety in the arrangement during the first section, but the sound scape here is just lovely
-Using a word like "retarded" once is potent, using it repeatedly is awkward

DJ Ranger Deni:
-You already know you need to turn up the vocals a bit, you've known it for years
-This song is very pretty, the arrangement is suitably simple, the lyrics are touching: good job!
(This songs reminds me of 'Can't Let Go Of You' from Arcade Fire unreleased demo album, took me a while to place it.)

Emperor Gum:
-I feel like these reviews are being negative, so I'll tear mine apart for fun
-arrangement is beautiful apart from the glaring error in the chord structure
-'live' instruments are all out of tune and out of time, mix is a mess, song is in wrong vocal range, lyrics are devoid of impact, vocals are generally poor, ending cuts off too fast

Future Boy:
-don't care for the rhymes, arrangement is a little simple
-sorry, this just isn't my kind of music; that's not your fault
-Good production!

Hip Hop Anonymous:
-Lyrics are smart enough and I enjoy your rapping skills
-Needed a more complex musical accompaniment to keep me interested

Klownhole:
-a bit out of time, lacks some punch in the production, needs some more progression
-guitar riffs are pretty good, though

Life In Decibals:
-Like the synths going on here
-Not enough progression

Mom & Data:
-Gorgeous, this is exactly the sort of thing I like
(reminds me of the song used at the end of The Guild season 2)

Pace del Stinko:
-Solid entry, love the rough synth sounds going on here
-That distorted synth (?) is too loud after the first minute
-Odd, the ending doesn't feel like it climaxes enough, yet I adore the pitch drop at the end

Pigfarmer Jr:
-really don't like the verses
-like the chorus music, buts it way too repetitive
(start reminds me of Dear Star by Muse)

Ripping Hammer:
-short and sweet, love the backing vocals, great arrangement

Son Of A Super Car:
-Yeah, can't think of anything to write for this one
-Wait; its super! AHAHAHAHA[/punch]

The Sportswriters:
-Beautiful lyrics
-Delicate, intricate arrangement
-I really like the percussion rhythm

T.C. Elliott:
-If this was any longer it would have been a mistake
-I suck guys, just running out of steam here
-I do like the song guys, vocals in particular

Wicked Cripply feat don't reply:
-don't care for the chorus
-there's some decent ideas in this, just feels like you ran out of them

-Graham

Emperor Gum wrote:@dirgetheband: Just the way the song turned out. You don't like long intros in general, or did you think this one was too long?

Please listen to Ani DiFranco's "You Had Time" for what I consider the perfect long intro. (Also, do yerself a favor and read Nick Hornby's write up of this tune in his non-fictional work 31 Songs. Then read High Fidelity, if you haven't already. I think we were all Rob Gordon at some point in our lives.) Another better known example would be Big Brother and the Holding Company's "Another Piece of My Heart."

For a lengthy intro to be interesting to me it should present some musical idea not present (or at least not highlighted) in the remainder of the song. It could be a chord progression not found in the rest of the tune. Or maybe it has a solo or some other lead instrument and acts like an instrumental verse. Unfortunately, what your intro sounded like was a band kicking into its opening number while waiting for the singer to emerge from backstage. Cool in a live setting, but it makes me twiddle my thumbs while sitting at my computer. Especially since your song had such a chill vibe, it would have benefited from having a brief 2, maybe 4 bar intro and then launching right into the vocals.

Alternately, it could have also worked as a simple instrumental.

Mixer Review

Mix notes

solo=vote


Berkely Social Scene
gorgeous the solo
I would have liked this more with a bit less generic formula


BGM
love how you turn up the disco


Billy & the Psychotics
brilliant bit of psychobilly


C. Layne
good vibe. really like the intense vocal bits

Dejected Motives
the whole thing feels pretty random, with nothing to glue it together
I would have liked this more if it had less solo-ey instruments throughout

Dirge
decent blues-rock-ballad vibe
I would have liked this more with a better vocal performance

DJ Ranger Den
solid C&G
I would have liked this more with some drums & judicious backing vocals

Emporor Gum
I would have liked this a lot more if both vocals and instruments were tuned

Future Boy
deadly keys

Hip Hop Anonymous
reminds me of Weird Al covering Nightmare On My Street
needs some gang vox on the chorus

Klownhole
very klownhole.
I would have liked this more if your recording/mixing had gotten better over the years

Life In Decibels
diggin' the groove
I would have liked this more if the vocals were a bit stronger Also, please don't make me wait for a secret track if there isn't going to be one.That made me sad in the pants.

Mom & Data
decent postrock feel, if a bit bland
I would have liked this more if it had some dynamics or went somewhere

Paco Del Stinko
that bass is intoxicating! maybe turn it down just a bit
Love the mean-ass synth
I would have liked this more if stuff was out of the vocals' way


Pigfarmer Jr.
vocals are very dry and conversational. Is this some stylistic thing that I don't understand?
I would have liked this more if it didn't sound like two songs rammed together.


Ripping Hammer
I think I like this more than I think I should


Son Of Supercar
reminds me of the Last Action Hero soundtrack, for some reason
I would have liked this more if it were a bit better mix balanced


The Sportswriters
sorry, I just don't like it. Tried to be fair aboot a review, though
I would have liked this more if I liked it more


T.C. Elliot
this song calls for better drums
I would have liked it more if the vocals fit in the mix better


Wicked Cripple Feat. Don't Reply
this brings up an AWESOME joke from high school
I would have liked it more with a better mix and...hm.

signboy wrote:Mixer Review

Mixer review is awesome.

That is all.