The Song Fight Bulletin Board

Damn, I'm sorry we're out. Sounds like a great excuse to make copious amounts of guitar noise...I look forward to hearing the results.

Ross wrote:So, I have bronze wound steel strings on my guitar.

Does that count?

Yes, of course it does.

And if you play them so hard that they get covered in iron-rich haemoglobin from your bloody fingers - it will count doubley so.

Ross wrote:A judge says:

j$ wrote: Not the correct interpretation, A correct interpretation.

The guy running the thing says:

niveous wrote: What would Maiden Do?

You decide

There are many ways to interpret the challenge. WWIMD? was just a gentle situation for something I wouldn't mind hearing.

Niveous wrote: PS- C-Ray, you're an Aussie. AC/DC.

Is AC/DC heavy metal?!?!

I wouldn't have thought so.

Especially not Bon era Accadacca - that is just pub rock.

I really am not sure what "metal" is (in a musical sense - I know what it is in a chemical/physical sense)

I consulted my iPod today. The only "metal"on there was Rage Against the Machine and the Beastie Boys (no, I don't know why the Beastie Boys was classified as heavy metal either). I also have At The Drive In and Muse on there - I think that is "metal". And Led Zepplin I suppose.

I do know that "Really Got Me" by The Kinks is considered by many to be the first ever "heavy metal" song. That is certainly on my iPod.

Is Sonic Youth "metal"? Is Spiderbait "metal"? Is Muse "metal"?

Caravan Ray wrote:Is ... heavy metal?!?!

Is ... "metal"? Is ... "metal"? Is ... "metal"?

I have a feeling that there will be a lot of people getting zero points this round, from at least one of the judges.

http://www.metal-archives.com/content/rules#tab_metal

Eric Y. wrote: http://www.metal-archives.com/content/rules#tab_metal

wow.
I disagree.
a lot.

Manhattan Glutton wrote: whoever uses the least guitars

Well... shit.

Niveous wrote:

Eric Y. wrote: http://www.metal-archives.com/content/rules#tab_metal

wow.
I disagree.
a lot.

It's official, my entry will be Cognitive Dissonance Metal.

Eric Y. wrote:

Caravan Ray wrote:Is ... heavy metal?!?!

Is ... "metal"? Is ... "metal"? Is ... "metal"?

I have a feeling that there will be a lot of people getting zero points this round, from at least one of the judges.

http://www.metal-archives.com/content/rules#tab_metal

THat link is AWESOME!!!???!? \m/

\m/\m/\m/\m/
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First and foremost, for a band to be metal, it must have metal riffs. This point should be fairly straight-forward and obvious. Nevertheless, when it comes to some genres or styles, it's not always implied that the music is rooted in metal or is substantively comprised of metal riffs. For example, grindcore can either be rooted in punk (ex. Anal Cunt) or in death metal (ex. Nasum, Pig Destroyer, Agathocles); metalcore rooted in hardcore/-core (ex. Atreyu) or in metal (ex. The Red Chord); and so on. Such music can be borderline, but still be acceptable. Some bands have mostly chugging, fuzz, or noodling, with minor metal influences; this does not make these bands metal. The metal elements must outweigh the non-metal ones.

Second, for the lesser-known bands, we need compelling evidence that the band is metal. We won't just take your word for it, sorry. The best evidence is, of course, in the form of audio samples. Most bands have a Myspace or Bandcamp with such samples nowadays. But for older, obscure bands (the kind of thrash band that released one demo in 1986 and disbanded, for example), if no sound samples are available, a scan from a metalzine review describing the band's sound as unambiguously metal can be acceptable, but those cases are exceptional and the moderation can exercise full discretion.

Third, for a band to be acceptable, it must have at least one fully, unambiguously metal album. This means that Def Leppard can be accepted because of their NWOBHM debut, even if they turned to pop rock later. This also means that DevilDriver and Soulfly, which started as mallcore, were (reluctantly) deemed acceptable after finally releasing some metal albums. This does not mean that we'll accept Sum 41 because of their one heavy song "The Bitter End". Bands with a long discography of non-metal music and one short metal demo/split/single will not be accepted. Additionally, bands with a few metal songs scattered across an otherwise generally non-metal discography are not acceptable either.

We accept the following non-metal bands in certain cases (these exceptions can be ambiguous and debatable - scroll down for details):

Side-projects of notable metal band members (ex. Pain, Wongraven, Die Verbannten Kinder Eva's). We prefer side-projects to be on a label with worldwide distribution and have a full-length release, but do not require it (this is to avoid a flood of bedroom/MySpace bands).
Non-metal projects included arbitrarily as they are seen by the staff to belong as a part of the metal scene. Their inclusion is rare, exceptional, and discretionary of the staff.
Bands that are no longer metal, but are/were still generally recognized as metal bands at some point (ex: Ulver, Katatonia, Def Leppard)
We do NOT accept the following (this is our decision, please don't argue this):
Mallcore, also known as "nu-metal" by some (ex: Papa Roach, Limp Bizkit, Drowning Pool, Slipknot)
Metalcore and Deathcore, unless it's clearly more metal than core (e.g. Shadows Fall, The Red Chord, All Shall Perish are OK: Avenged Sevenfold, Atreyu, Bullet For My Valentine, Between the Buried and Me, Suicide Silence are NOT). If you are uncertain, best avoid metalcore bands altogether.
Glam rock (ex: Poison, Whitesnake, KISS)
Classic rock (ex: Led Zeppelin, Uriah Heep)
Progressive rock (ex: Yes, King Crimson, The Flower Kings, Spock's Beard)
Psychedelic rock, Occult rock (ex: Graveyard, Ancient VVisdom, The Devil's Blood)
Hard rock (ex: Guns 'N Roses, AC/DC, Alice Cooper)
Hardcore (ex: Hatebreed, Earth Crisis, Converge, Black Flag, Minor Threat)
Grindcore (and all its variants; noise, crust, powerviolence, gore, etc) with little to zero metal riffs or influence (ex: Anal Cunt, Libido Airbag, Last Days of Humanity)
Punk (ex: The Misfits, The Ramones, The Sex Pistols)
Gothic rock (ex: Bauhaus, Sisters of Mercy, Fields of Nephilim)
Industrial (ex: Nine Inch Nails, Rammstein, KMFDM, N17)
Alternative/modern hard rock (ex: Evanescence, Audioslave, Tool, Godsmack, HIM)
J-Rock, Visual Kei Rock, Touhou (ex: Malice Mizer, Dir En Grey, MyonMyon, Matenrou Opera)
Djent (ex: Animals as Leaders, Periphery, TesseracT)
Ambient, Drone, Noise (ex: In Slaughter Natives, Liholesie, Merzbow)
Post-rock, Post-punk, Post-hardcore (ex: Killing Joke, Shinedown, Rosetta)
Cover/tribute/gimmick bands (ex: The Iron Maidens, Catch the Rainbow) of contemporary artists (metal versions of traditional folk songs can be OK), unless they start as such and eventually write their own music





I haven't actually read all that - but let's call it "official rules'?

Everyone is going to have their own definition of what metal is. Despite genres being around to help classify and organize music, everyone can have their own opinions. A little later in the day, I'll post up what metal means to me. It'll take a little while to write. And just like how I disagreed with the people at Metal Encyclopedia, people are bound to disagree with me on some points and that's okay. I want to see what everyone's metal is. The challenge for this round was one word with a ton of possibilities.

And of course...Jamiacan steel drums are made of metal...

That was my original response - a ska/reggae thing...but now I am heading toward the more traditional (musical ) meaning...HEAVY METAL.


THis is not to my advantage.

Up against Paco and Sam - I am no match. Then we have Frank and Ross - both far more capable of metalling it up than me. Wreckdom and Ben...well, who knows - they are idiots. And Governing Dynamics sounds a bit more capable guitarwise than I am too.

But I don't care,

I am gauntleting down

Bring it on, mofos.

I am going HEAVY

Niveous wrote:

Eric Y. wrote: http://www.metal-archives.com/content/rules#tab_metal

wow.
I disagree.
a lot.

I'm with you Niv. I count several of those sub-genres as forms of metal.

Ray, just put a metal distortion preset on your guitar, play with palm muting, and throw in a "riff", and I'm sure you'll be fine.

John, I must say I liked your lyrics so you're off to a good start.

For the record, I didn't post the link to the Encyclopaedia Metallum "rules" because I agree with them 100%, or because I consider them the foremost authority on what is/isn't "metal".

Just pointing out that there are a lot of opinions out there, and a lot of controversy, if you start to open up that can of worms.

EDIT: A much less exhaustive, albeit much more entertaining, view on the subject can be found by browsing here: http://www.thatsnotmetal.com/ (particularly under the heading "VIOLATIONS")

What is metal, the Niv version.

Just for the sake of starting somewhere, I tossed the words “heavy metal definition” into Google. What I got was:

A type of highly amplified harsh-sounding rock music with a strong beat, characteristically using violent or fantastic imagery.

Well, that’s not right, now is it? Let’s start with the characteristic imagery. Is violent imagery a characteristic of metal. Sure, you find songs like “Hammer Smashed Face”, but metal’s lyrical content spans much wider than that (Just ask the Christian metal bands). And as for fantasy, some metal bands talk about the harsh realities of the world. Some have political content. So, let’s knock that part off the definition.

A type of highly amplified harsh-sounding rock music with a strong beat

Highly amplified. Okay, I can agree with that part. A lot of the evolution from rock into heavy metal came when bands started playing around more with amplification and distortion. But it’s not a hard and fast rule, is it? Opeth falls into the category of metal. Lots of acoustic guitars on their records. Borknagar is metal and their Origin album is quite acoustic. There are other examples too. Maybe an adjustment?

A type of highly amplified harsh-sounding rock music with a strong beat. Acoustic harsh-sounding rock music can also fall under this category.

Then there’s that word harsh. There are a lot of harsh sounds into metal. I can’t deny that. But harsh means unpleasantly rough or severe. If heavy metal was just plain harsh then no one would listen to it, it would just be noise. But, there is a definite sonic difference between heavy metal and rock. You kinda know it when you hear it. Maybe metal is the music that toys with the borderline between rock and noise.

A type of highly amplified music with a strong beat which uses sounds that are harsher than those found in rock music. Acoustic harsh-sounding rock music can also fall under this category.

Then there’s that whole strong beat thing. I’d be okay with leaving that in if I didn’t listen to drone metal. But I guess that’s an exception to the rule…But then again, there are a lot of exceptions to the rules.

Do riffs make the song metal? Maybe. But, jazz has riffs. But, Black Sabbath was influenced by jazz…

Maybe metal is moreso a scene than a genre. But there are so many different scenes. Napalm Death falls into the definition above. So does Alice Cooper, Dio, Soundgarden, Celtic Frost, Hatebreed, Marilyn Manson, Dying Fetus, Kittie… Many of those scenes are very different. Well, that’s not helping me get closer to an answer.

For every rule you can make about what is metal, you are bound to find some bands that break that rule and are still called metal. I can name at least 20 heavy metal subgenres, each with fans that will fight you to the death if you say “this isn’t metal”. So, is there a unifying factor to all this?

1. Harsher than rock.
2. Calls itself metal, or is called metal by others.
3. Someone accepts #2 as true.

That’s really about it for me. One person’s metal isn’t necessarily another’s. For me, metal is very widespread. I accept a lot of derivatives under that umbrella. Just start at Sabbath and work your way down the family tree.

Well said Niveous!

My own two cents as far as what I will consider "metal" is anything that strikes me as metal. There's a wide range there and I love having more to choose from.

Here, let me fix that for you. (Choose one).

Niveous wrote:Black Sabbath was influenced by jazz blues…

Niveous wrote:Black Sabbath Dysrhythmia was influenced by jazz…

Black Sabbath were influenced by blues and jazz.

Bill Ward wrote:Childhood, all me influences were, say, between the time that I can remember, which would have been about three years old to the time that I was about five or six years old, all the music that I ever heard was jazz and it was American jazz, and it was big band jazz, to be more defined. Because of the time, it being in the fifties when I first heard Presley, of course I was just totally gone at that point. I was just absolutely trapped or gathered up, if you like, by rock and roll. But before that, what I consider to be traditional rock and roll would have been the Ink Spots and the Platters.

All of those bands I was extremely fond of listening to and they were very influential in my life. So, those were the combinations and I have always been attracted to the big swing bands throughout my life up to this very day. I'm 57 years old now, so I guess that's 54 years of listening to pretty much American swing, particularly big band swing. I like jazz in all the ways that it is played. I think I am probably attracted to it because of the drummers that played in those big swing bands at the time. So those were my very early influences.

music genres are defined by the beat and the melody.
Stravinsky and Bartok wrote the first metal compositions.
check out Bartok String Quartet #4 part 5 allegro molto
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmkDMTU-hb4

metal is always heavy on the downbeat, you lay on the upbeat it's ska
always heavy on the one.

playing a flat 5 somewhere (the devil's interval) is very metal too.

I knew about the Stravinsky. Didn't know about the Bartok. Purposefully didn’t mention the metal/classical connection. Didn't want to inspire an instrumental for this round.

As for the technical aspects, the answer to what is metal isn't that cut and dry once you take deviations of the genre into account. But that is a good place to start.

I started a Nein thread for people who are still going to write songs after elimination: http://songfight.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=9073

Also, I'm now convinced that the title is brutal. Sorry for ever doubting it.

Niveous wrote:but metal’s lyrical content spans much wider than that

I used to annoy my friends by writing harsh, heavily distorted songs about flowers.

Caravan Ray wrote:Jamaican steel drums are made of metal...

I have access to 2 small ones, so my mind was going that way, too.

End forum-break. Time to go back to writing lyrics. And riffs.