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Re: Another thread about vocals

Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 4:50 pm
by Reist
Okay - I've listened to it about 20 times now. :)

I'm starting to think I should get a bass. This sounds a lot better with a bass (and everyone at SF has been bugging me to get one for about a year now).

If you say that the mic isn't picking up the right frequencies for vocals, I think I should get a new vocal mic. I don't mind fooling around with EQing, but when it comes to vocals, I don't quite have an ear for that yet (though I'll definitely remember your tips for that Adam). I think it would probably be best to get a new mic for this purpose, but if that doesn't happen for a while (due to me possibly getting a bass and becoming poor) then I'll bust out those EQ tricks you taught.

I'm in no hurry for this ... but ... how did you get the drums to sound that punchy and huge? The overall mix is a thousand times better than mine, but those drums sound exceptionally good. If you didn't take notes while doing it, that's fine - I'm not dying to know, but if you happened to take notes I would be quite grateful.

ps - I'm gonna pick up Cubase pretty soon, since we're setting up a computer in my recording room and I need a better mixing program than Audacity, so this should help with some of my mixing problems, assuming I purchase some decent speakers.

Re: Another thread about vocals

Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 5:26 pm
by melvin
This really does sound great, and after listening to the song 10 times, it's the catchiest thing I've heard in ages! Rock on, Andy.

Re: Another thread about vocals

Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 7:22 pm
by Reist
melvin wrote:This really does sound great, and after listening to the song 10 times, it's the catchiest thing I've heard in ages! Rock on, Andy.
Thanks!

I've made my "To Buy" list, which is sure to make me dirt poor ... but it must be done at some point.

1. Bass
2. Cubase (so I can mix on the newish computer I spoke of above)
3. Speakers/monitors
4. Vocal Mic

I may create a blog at radnoise to track my progress as I figure this stuff out. If I get anything worthwhile set up, I'll tell you guys. In the meantime, I'll get to work at work and get the money to get a bass and cubase ... stat!

EDIT: Post 2008! Woooohooo!

Re: Another thread about vocals

Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 9:21 pm
by Billy's Little Trip
Sounds great Adam! Very full on all levels. I find myself singing harmonies on parts. Very catchy song Andrew.
See, a good mix and production makes people want to listen and sing along. :P

Re: Another thread about vocals

Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 1:08 am
by Adam!
Since a few people asked: The Drums

The first thing I do when I'm mixing is I get the drums sounding good. A good, balanced and solid drum sound is the foundation of the song, for me. For this song most of the drum tweaking work I did happened to the overheads, so I'll go over those first. The whole reason I wanted to get the Kick Start source from you in the first place was to try out a ludicrously and anticlimactically simple processing technique on the close mics, which I will go over second.
  • I started by panning the Overheads hard left and right and giving 'em a listen. First things I noticed: the snare was slightly out of phase, coming in a little sooner on the left than the right. I'd guess the left mic was a bit closer to the snare. To recenter the kit around the snare, I slid the left OH back so it was starting 2/3ms later than the right, at which point the snare moved to the center of the stereo field.
  • The next thing I noticed was that the crash was way over in the right OH and really, REALLY loud; to compensate for this I panned the right overhead a little closer to center (about 3/4 of the way to the right), leaving the left OH panned hard.
  • I then took a fine parametric EQ, boosted the peak filter as high as it would go (something like 18db) and put the q up as narrow as it would go (somewhere around q=10) and manually swept it up and down the full frequency range, listening to hear if anything really ugly jumped out at me. I found what I was looking for up around 4khz: a tinny, painful treble overtone, probably coming from the cymbals. I notched this out with a 9db cut and a medium width Q of 3.
  • OK, the overheads were sounding pretty good, but that crash was still waaay too loud. For scenarios like this, where I want to turn down just one element of a kit, it's time to bust out the split-band compressor. I centered the frequency band that I wanted to tame up around 6khz where the bulk of the crash sound was. This is a tricky operation, actually, because a lot of the clarity of the hihat lies up in that region too, and if I didn't chose my compressor values carefully I would smoosh the hat. In the end I used a medium attack (10ms) and a fast release (50ms) with a fairly heavy handed ratio (3:1), and set the threshold juuust right so that the hi-hat was barely getting attenuated, but the louder crashes would get pushed down by about 6db. To replace some of the highs that I would be losing due to the split-band compression, I used a makeup gain of 1.5db.
  • Alright, NOW shit was sounding usable. I added in the close mics, and listened to how they all sounded together. Not enough hi-hat, so I boosted at 2.5khz by 3db (with a normal width of q=1.5) to bring it up. There was also a bit too much junk going on in the lower frequencies, so I did a high-pass at 120hz. At last, I am happy with the overall tone and balance.
  • But, with the close mics mixed in, I realize that I'm getting too much snare in the overheads. I like for the snap of the snare to mostly come from the close mics. To solve this, I reached deep into my bag of tricks and pulled out the side-chaining expander. Side-chaining is when you use one track to control the dynamics of another. In this case, I used the snare track to "duck" the overheads: every time there was a hit on the snare track, the overheads quickly got pushed down by 3-6db, then slowly rise back up to their original level over the course of ~250ms. This cut out most of the snare's hit, leaving only its roomy decay/ringing sound.
  • OK, last step. This just wouldn't be a rock mix without some conventional (single-band) compression on the overheads. I used a fast attack (1ms) and fast release (100ms) to tame any hits that were peaking too loud, mostly the toms and some rogue crashes. I usually say "there are no rules when it comes to mixing", but for some reason I find that a ratio of 1.7:1 always works perfectly on overheads. 1.5:1 is too wussy, and 2:1 (or even 1.8:1) is too constrained. I set the threshold so that I am getting 1-3db gain reduction on the loud crashy sections and 4-6db reduction on the very loudest tom hits.
As for the close mics, I must sheepishly confess that I did not actually use them. Instead, I used a peak-detector-to-midi converter to turn your close drum mics into a midi track. The plugin detects the volume of each drum hit, so that the louder you hit the snare in your original track, the higher the midi-velocity for that note would be. Once your drum grove was converted into a midi file, I had the freedom to trigger any drum sounds I wanted. I went with a dream theater-y kick and snare that I had, and some nirvana-y toms (which I had to tweak a bit to get them to be the same pitch as your toms). Listening to the midi-drum tracks solo they clearly sounded artificial, but once I brought in the overheads they kind of blended in and sounded more natural, albeit definitely larger than life. If I were trying to make a more realistic sounding drum track I probably would have mixed your original drum tracks back in a bit. It's a little surprising to find out that probably 99% of Top 40 radio-rock uses some sample-replacement or sample-augmentation like this. I didn't EQ any of the synth-drums at all, and instead of compressing them I just tweaked the midi file a bit to give the drum hits a more consistent level (without completely sucking the life out of them). Finally, for a little faux-room sound I added a touch of short (0.5s decay) reverb to both the fake drums and the overheads.

So, that was my experiment with this mix, to see if I could get away with replacing your drums with samples, and see what the reaction would be. Everyone seemed to like the result, so, GREAT SUCCESS! For the record, I also subtly autotuned your vocals to fix a few sketchy notes, and edited the timing of your backing vocals to make them line up a bit better with the lead vocals.

Last few notes, even though no one asked

For the bass I recorded 3 tracks simultaneously: one DI straight into the mixer, one clean track coming from a bass amp, and one more aggressive track coming through a guitar amp. So, that's actually just one bass take, but split into three signals. I then compress the fricken' snot out of the DI, and leave the other two alone. The DI and the bass amp mixed together make up 90% of my bass sound, but I also like to ride the faders up on the distorted track during the more rockin' parts of a mix. For examples, you can hear the clean combo at the beginning of the song, but right before the solo section the bass plays by itself and you can clearly hear the distorted track mixed in there.

Guitars are always the last thing I think about in a mix, and I tend to use radical EQs on them. The guitar processing I used here wasn't anything special, so I won't go into too much detail. Your guitars had no highs at all, so I did a huge (like, 12db) high-shelf boost, and used a shwack of that BBE Sonic Maximizer again, which is very good for adding "presence" to guitars that lack it. Unfortunately, BBE can exacerbate annoying treble frequencies, so I did that sweep-a-peak-back-and-forth thing I talked about (when I was looking for annoying frequencies in the overheads) and ended up notching out about 12db of hissy crap near 4 khz. The guitars still felt hollow so I added a wide, beefy boost around 1.5-2khz to try and bring out the mids. I could take or leave the results. I gave the organs a similar treatment, and didn't compress either.

I hope someone gets something useful out of all that.


Assuming funds are limited, I'd re-order that list to
  • -1. Bass
  • 0. Anything other than Audacity
  • 1. Room treatment
  • 2. Monitors
  • 3. Vocal Mic
  • ...
  • X. Cubase
You need that bass, like, last year. Audicity is a joke; Reaper is totally decent, extremely lightweight (2mb installer, and half of that is the project file for a Brad Sucks song that comes with it), supports all the plugins I use, and it's free*. Room treatment clearly depends on your mixing environment, but I hear a fair bit of room sound in those vocals. If you're in a small room like mine, damping the room reflections will have a larger effect on your mixes than getting better monitors will. Cubase is fully featured, but you really pay for it. Plus one of those features is a steep learning curve. Aside from BBE that I mentioned earlier (and a great tape-saturation plugin called Magento) their built-in effects aren't anything to write home about. I really think that money would be better spent on gear, at this point.

My 38 cents.

* Image

Re: Another thread about vocals

Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 2:42 am
by Paco Del Stinko
Great post, Adam!. Thanks for putting the effort in. :)

Re: Another thread about vocals

Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 8:19 am
by Lunkhead
Thanks for the details, that's good stuff.

Re: Another thread about vocals

Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 8:25 am
by ken
Wow. Great explanation Adam. I'd just like to echo that sweeping the EQ is the CLASSIC way to EQ things. Boost to find the shitty frequencies and then cut them. Try this on all your tracks, just find one frequency to cut on each.

Also, I'd like to suggest an SX bass as a cheap yet quality instrument. Check them out here: http://www.rondomusic.com/bassguitars4.html

I agree that treating your room will make a biggest improvement overall, but after that I think a better vocal mic will also serve you well. Have we even discussed what kind of soundcard you are using?

Be well,
Ken

Re: Another thread about vocals

Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 9:08 am
by Billy's Little Trip
Awesome Adam! That whole write up makes me feel like such an amateur about my process. I've never even used midi ever, for anything. But I do like the idea that you can use a signal to trigger other things. Also, I've never used any vocal pitch tweaking. Personally I don't even want to know about that because I'll end up using it instead of improving my vocals.
But what I really like is your EQing and compression techniques. You really nailed the frequencies and stereo width and nothing is crowding the other. I've been working on that technique myself. Sometime my mixes start sounding like a wall of sound without proper separation.

Re: Another thread about vocals

Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 11:26 am
by Reist
Thanks Adam! It's all really useful advice - I've got to read it a few more times to pick it all up, but it all looks really helpful. Thanks again for taking the time to do this. :)

Re: Another thread about vocals

Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 2:11 pm
by Reist
Adam! wrote:As for the close mics, I must sheepishly confess that I did not actually use them. Instead, I used a peak-detector-to-midi converter to turn your close drum mics into a midi track. The plugin detects the volume of each drum hit, so that the louder you hit the snare in your original track, the higher the midi-velocity for that note would be. Once your drum grove was converted into a midi file, I had the freedom to trigger any drum sounds I wanted. I went with a dream theater-y kick and snare that I had, and some nirvana-y toms (which I had to tweak a bit to get them to be the same pitch as your toms). Listening to the midi-drum tracks solo they clearly sounded artificial, but once I brought in the overheads they kind of blended in and sounded more natural, albeit definitely larger than life. If I were trying to make a more realistic sounding drum track I probably would have mixed your original drum tracks back in a bit. It's a little surprising to find out that probably 99% of Top 40 radio-rock uses some sample-replacement or sample-augmentation like this. I didn't EQ any of the synth-drums at all, and instead of compressing them I just tweaked the midi file a bit to give the drum hits a more consistent level (without completely sucking the life out of them). Finally, for a little faux-room sound I added a touch of short (0.5s decay) reverb to both the fake drums and the overheads.
Ah ... I see. :) I thought I heard one snare hit that jumped in volume in your mix ... I wasn't sure about it though. Not like I was suspicious you had used midi triggering. Although I'm kind of against the whole cheating-music thing (with triggers/autotune), I'm starting to get lured in, especially when it comes to what you just described (since it sounded SO good). I'm just wondering - what program/plugin did you use for this?

Re: Another thread about vocals

Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 8:46 pm
by Billy's Little Trip
So Andrew, I'm curious what you think about the drum sounds, being the guy that made the hits. Does it sound like your kit?

Re: Another thread about vocals

Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 9:16 pm
by Reist
Billy's Little Trip wrote:So Andrew, I'm curious what you think about the drum sounds, being the guy that made the hits. Does it sound like your kit?
It sounds a hell of a lot better than my kit. I guess the kick is similar - my kick drum sounds pretty good to my ears when I play, but it just doesn't translate when it's recorded. The snare sounds a lot beefier than my snare (though my snare's pretty good, if I do say so myself). The toms sound pretty similar, but once again - more beefy and full. So I'd say - yes - it sounds similar to my kit, but the changes Adam made really improved the sound.

Re: Another thread about vocals

Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 9:30 pm
by Billy's Little Trip
Cool, that's what I was wondering. It sounds like your kit, just mixed and produced better.
Just think, the rock stars get to have that kind of sound live on stage. How awesome would that be to play your drums and have them coming out the PA system like that?

Re: Another thread about vocals

Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 11:53 pm
by Adam!
I like Drumagog, but it's not cheap. However, their are some free or cheap alternatives (thanks, deshead!). That first one he mentions, KTDrumTrigger, is by SmartElectronix, and those guys make great stuff. Here's a video of someone using one of these tools to do sample augmentation in Reaper.

Re: Another thread about vocals

Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 9:01 am
by Billy's Little Trip
Damn, that is cool to pull the kick and snare from the stereo track.
Fortunately I have separate kick and snare tracks. But of course the mics pick up other sounds, so I use blockfish or floorfish to isolate them the best I can. I like to mix the whole kit to the best sound I can, then duplicate the kick and snare on their own mono track so that I can treat them independently in level changes through the loud parts, EQing, fx, etc.

edit: I just noticed that digitakfishphones has a normalizer that sounds like it may help me. Cubase has a normalizer, but this one sounds better. I'll post my opinion after I try it.

Re: Another thread about vocals

Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 1:35 pm
by Reist
That's awesome - so technically, I could mic my entire set with one mic and trigger all the sounds to get a wonderful beefy drum sound. Not that I would do that for anything serious, but I might give it a try for fun sometime.

Now, for actual triggering (for snare/kick/toms) ... I have one more question. Where did you get the samples for the snare/kick/toms? Did you buy a sound bank, or did you find them online? If I'm going to do triggering, I'd like to have some decent sounds (possibly with some variety in tones too)

EDIT: Does KTDrumTrigger offer dynamics for the tracks? What I mean is ... if you play the snare lightly, does the midi trigger lightly? Or is it always loud? That could be a bit of a pain if not. Did you use drumagog for your Kick Start mix?

Re: Another thread about vocals

Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 8:58 pm
by Billy's Little Trip
I am so hoping that Adam comes back and tells us that he used your actual drum sounds to use as the triggered sounds.
I've heard that there is a program to make sound banks of your actual sound hits.

Re: Another thread about vocals

Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 9:17 pm
by Reist
Billy's Little Trip wrote:I am so hoping that Adam comes back and tells us that he used your actual drum sounds to use as the triggered sounds.
I've heard that there is a program to make sound banks of your actual sound hits.
There is no way he used my tracks for that ... unless he posesses some sort of black magic.

Anyways, in the meantime while Adam! has a life, I might as well mention this. I got reaper, and I'm currently enjoying what GClip and some other plugins have to offer. I haven't figured out the midi-triggering yet, but I've remastered a lot of my old songs. I'm starting to think that having any type of speakers to mix with could really help my mixes. There's remastered versions of 3 tunes (with the originals) posted at MY BLOG. Tell me what you think. Don't be afraid to critique the remastering jobs ... I'm a total beginner when it comes to thoughtful mastering.

Re: Another thread about vocals

Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 11:50 pm
by melvin
Everything I've Made Will Fade = Awesome!

Re: Another thread about vocals

Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 8:10 am
by ken
Billy's Little Trip wrote:I am so hoping that Adam comes back and tells us that he used your actual drum sounds to use as the triggered sounds.
I've heard that there is a program to make sound banks of your actual sound hits.
Drumagog lets you do this. It is a trick we actually use in the studio quite a bit. We "sample" all the drums at a variety of velocities at the beginning of a session when the drums are fresh and in tune. Later we may use these hits to replace the drums when they go out of tune, the heads are dead from being played too much, or a mic moves. It also works well when the drummer at the end of the mix decides that he didn't use the right snare drum for a song and wants to rerecord just the snare on a handful of songs. :roll:

Re: Another thread about vocals

Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 8:24 am
by Reist
melvin wrote:Everything I've Made Will Fade = Awesome!
Thanks! The song, or the remastering job? Either way, it's good to know you liked it. :)
ken wrote:
Billy's Little Trip wrote:I am so hoping that Adam comes back and tells us that he used your actual drum sounds to use as the triggered sounds.
I've heard that there is a program to make sound banks of your actual sound hits.
Drumagog lets you do this. It is a trick we actually use in the studio quite a bit. We "sample" all the drums at a variety of velocities at the beginning of a session when the drums are fresh and in tune. Later we may use these hits to replace the drums when they go out of tune, the heads are dead from being played too much, or a mic moves. It also works well when the drummer at the end of the mix decides that he didn't use the right snare drum for a song and wants to rerecord just the snare on a handful of songs. :roll:
That sounds awesome. I think I'd feel less guilty about doing that, actually.