The Song Fight Bulletin Board

You can dispute the math of the Nur Ein or whatever you want, it went down the way it did and there's no use crying over split milk. Throughout this year's Nur Ein, I've heard a lot of devil's advocacy from JB, Erik and FBF. I say that you three should be part of the jury next year. Let's see how you armchair quarterbacks and backseat drivers deal with the issues of the Nur Ein. I think it would be fun (and I say that without any sarcasm. I'm completely serious)

Niveous wrote:You can dispute the math of the Nur Ein or whatever you want, it went down the way it did and there's no use crying over split milk. Throughout this year's Nur Ein, I've heard a lot of devil's advocacy from JB, Erik and FBF. I say that you three should be part of the jury next year. Let's see how you armchair quarterbacks and backseat drivers deal with the issues of the Nur Ein. I think it would be fun (and I say that without any sarcasm. I'm completely serious)

Sheesh.

Listen, I don't care about the final outcome of Nur Ein. Don't care at all. It doesn't bother me, and I'm not crying over spilt milk, because I'm not crying. Like Songfight, it's a contest where the winner gets nothing. Ta-da.

If you re-read my last couple of posts, my only beef is with this attempted rationalization: "Since Ken came in last, he wouldn't have won in a head-to-head against any of the other contestants." That is simply not true.

I'm not crying, nor complaining about this: I'm merely saying that this specific rationalization for your decision is unsound. I can't think of a clearer way to make this point.

erik wrote:

Niveous wrote:You can dispute the math of the Nur Ein or whatever you want, it went down the way it did and there's no use crying over split milk. Throughout this year's Nur Ein, I've heard a lot of devil's advocacy from JB, Erik and FBF. I say that you three should be part of the jury next year. Let's see how you armchair quarterbacks and backseat drivers deal with the issues of the Nur Ein. I think it would be fun (and I say that without any sarcasm. I'm completely serious)

Sheesh.

Listen, I don't care about the final outcome of Nur Ein. Don't care at all. It doesn't bother me, and I'm not crying over spilt milk, because I'm not crying. Like Songfight, it's a contest where the winner gets nothing. Ta-da.

If you re-read my last couple of posts, my only beef is with this attempted rationalization: "Since Ken came in last, he wouldn't have won in a head-to-head against any of the other contestants." That is simply not true.

I'm not crying, nor complaining about this: I'm merely saying that this specific rationalization for your decision is unsound. I can't think of a clearer way to make this point.

Mis quote...I call mis quote!
Niveous clearly said "split milk". Kind of a mix between split hairs and spilt milk.

Fine. I can agree that there's a flaw in that rationalization. There is a chance that in a one on one situation, Ken's song may have fared better than in the 4 way. But it didn't go down that way. I stand by the jury's decision to do a 4 way round. I see that there are some who may not have liked that decision. It just means that when the Nur Ein comes around next year, we have to have concrete rules governing the play. Growing pains. Oh well.

Erik, I apologize if I made in sound like I thought you, or JB for that matter, were whining. That was not my intention.

Oh, and I rescind that jury offer. Since the WSA won, by all rights the four of them should be allowed to be the jury.

Well, there's sufficient precedent to suggest that the WSA could act as one judge, too. I don't know which arrangement would be better/worse.

...and sufficient opposition to the idea of the multi-man judge to warrant further review before making that decision next year.

Indeed. (For the record, I didn't have a problem with it.)

Nur Ein is awesome. Next year it will be even better. If there ends up being a judge spot open, keep me in mind.

Congrats WSA! It was a great song. My condolences to the runner-ups, but I guess you guys have a lot of good songs after this, so I suppose everyone kind of wins!

Hopefully next year I won't face a thousand obstacles to getting the round three song done in time. Man that one was bad. But at least I've got kick start and sleepwalking - I'd consider them my best songs yet.

jimtyrrell wrote:Well, there's sufficient precedent to suggest that the WSA could act as one judge, too. I don't know which arrangement would be better/worse.

Precedent or none, it's probably a pretty good way of making the four of us hate each other

Reist - Thanks! and Your Unnatural Disaster sure wasn't that bad. But I do agree about the other 2 songs you wrote, good work. I prematurely wish you the best of luck for next year. WSA would've been nowhere without a fair dose of luck (weeeellll, maybe not "nowhere" ).

I should mention that we partially ruined the WSA mystique last weekend cos I actually met Glennny for the first time. Man, that guy has stamina. I damn nearly dragged him around the whole county and he still managed to stay up drinking til 4am in his jetlagged state. A seriously cool dude.

I second Jim Tyrrell. He has well rounded musical taste and would make a great judge.

Billy's Little Trip wrote:I second Jim Tyrrell. He has well rounded musical taste and would make a great judge.

The sucking up to the judges is starting early for Nur Ein IV

I wrote this last night but couldn't send it.

My point is this: it's incorrect to say that the person who got 4th place when judges had to rank 4 choices couldn't have won in a head-to-head comparison between him and any of the other 3 contestants. To say "It wouldn't have mattered anyways because Ken got 4th place" is bad math.

Erik, you should be careful what you call bad math. You're conveniently disregarding the point totals. WSA had 35. That means that the maximum number of "not 4's" is 5. So out of the 10 voters if WSA only got 5 favorable votes to one particular other contestant, that contestant would have a minimum score of 25 (five 4's and five 1's). This would be a tie, however as you may notice none of the other contestants scored 25.

Although your example was valid as a hypothetical, it doesn't apply to the final round of Nur Ein 3.

I love the 8 songs that all 3 of those guys submitted. We're all winners (pardon the cheese). In a different cumulative competition, Ken would probably have the most total points, and ADD and JBB could afford to skip a week and comeback and kick ass. However Niveous told us the rules of the competition and that's why we have what we have.

Also if you applied the suggested tie breaker to round 5 (excluding Ken as the clear winner) you end up with WSA beats Ross 3-2, Ross beats Paco 3-2, and Paco beats WSA 3-2. There's no clear winner at all that way. if it were my contest, i would eliminate the immunity and use accrued victories as tie break advantages (like in my earlier post Ken beats everyone with 2 victories if tied, Ross beats everyone but Ken if tied with 1.5 victories, WSA beats Paco with 1 victory, Paco beats no one if tied.)

Anyway it's a lovely contest, the judging was great, the judges reviews were really great when we got them. I fear the arguments on the boards shied the judges away from reviews. I apologize for my participation in clarification debates.

(back to today)

Yeah that was a BLAST to hang out with Furrypedro! I saw and recorded him playing 2 shows! The guys a maniac, with a very charming bunch of friends ("mates" they call 'em). i can't wait to further ruin our mystique and get the other guys in the same room.

I'd love to be a judge, but I also love participating, and I don't think I'd like to be a 25% judge.

I can't wait for the Caravan Ray best of Nur Ein 3 list. My short list (other than WSA tracks) is PDS-Whale, Ken-Ties of Blood, ADD-Kick Start, JBB-Blitz, there's dozens of other gems, but those come to mind without review.

glennny wrote:I wrote this last night but couldn't send it.

My point is this: it's incorrect to say that the person who got 4th place when judges had to rank 4 choices couldn't have won in a head-to-head comparison between him and any of the other 3 contestants. To say "It wouldn't have mattered anyways because Ken got 4th place" is bad math.

Erik, you should be careful what you call bad math. You're conveniently disregarding the point totals. WSA had 35. That means that the maximum number of "not 4's" is 5. So out of the 10 voters if WSA only got 5 favorable votes to one particular other contestant, that contestant would have a minimum score of 25 (five 4's and five 1's). This would be a tie, however as you may notice none of the other contestants scored 25.

Although your example was valid as a hypothetical, it doesn't apply to the final round of Nur Ein 3.

Glenny, I am careful what I call bad math. My example totally applies to the last round of Nur Ein. I'm not disregarding the point totals at all. My point is NOT "It is possible that Ken might have beaten ANY of the other three contestants in a head to head contest". I know Ken would have lost in a head-to-head against WSA. That's not what I'm saying. My point is this: "It is not impossible that Ken might have beaten SOME of the other three contestants in a head-to-head contest". Most specifically, the one who only got 2 more points than him. I'm saying that IF the last round only had 2 bands in it (like the last round has had in the past), depending on what the bands were, Ken might have won.

I'd rather not talk about this anymore on the messageboard, because it's probably giving people the impression that I give a rat's ass about the outcome of this contest, and because I bet it's totally uninteresting to most people. I just brought it up because it is bad math. It is. That's the only reason I brought it up.

I am sorry for responding so many times to people. Anyone else who wants to discuss this with me, please send a PM. Yay for Nur Ein, yay for WSA, yay for everyone who submitted any number of songs.

glennny wrote:I can't wait for the Caravan Ray best of Nur Ein 3 list.

Sadly I haven't heard any songs since the "Unnatural Disaster" round....but they tell me my broadband is being connected today, so Ill try to get back to it

Caravan Ray wrote:

Billy's Little Trip wrote:I second Jim Tyrrell. He has well rounded musical taste and would make a great judge.

The sucking up to the judges is starting early for Nur Ein IV

BLT 2009

fürrypedro wrote:Argh, you bastard. I wanted to go to that gig so badly but it sold out. The worst part of it is that when he toured in 2005 me and my friends were literally the only people who'd gone to see them. I'd be interested to know how it was over (highlights and such) in the gig thread if you can be bothered.

Sorry Pedro, I had been meaning to write some notes, but I have to say I just forgot to. Being honest I didn't remember the gig too well at the time, I spent too much time drinking and catching up with old friends. It was certainly interesting though, I'm still not convinced on the guy's raps but there's no denying the band's talent. The drummer switched between xylophone and bass at one point, all whilst still playing the drums (well only with his foot when he was on the bass, but still) it was very impressive.