Starwars Ep III

raisedbywolves · Post by **raisedbywolves** » Fri May 20, 2005 11:32 pm

frankie big face wrote:I thought it was excellent. If you can't enjoy this movie, you don't want to enjoy this movie. It's 1000 times better than the last two and I think probably better than ROTJ.

No, I really wanted to enjoy this movie. And while I agree it's better than the other two, it's still kinda like multiplying zeroes.

The Star Wars EW had an article that I think sheds some light on the problems with the new trilogy. Lucas admits that he didn't really have enough material for a trilogy (hence the thoroughly superfluous 20 minute pod-racing scene), that he didn't really script out most of the dialogue until the actual shoot, and that he planned to fix everything in postproduction. I think the prequels suffer from a) an obvious lack of interest on Lucas's part to create anything approaching real characters or speakable dialogue and b) no characters filling in the charisma void created by the absence of Harrison Ford and Carrie Fisher. Even Lucas seems to have convinced himself that we were all entralled solely by the technology of the original series, when I think it was mostly about the characters. We liked them and cared about what happened to them. He was so busy filling every frame with moving digital things that he lost sight of what was really important. Who gives a shit about "Ani" and Padme when they're complete wooden ciphers? There's no simmering tension under their dialogue or any deeper layers of emotion than the ridiculously literal words coming out of their mouths. "Hold me like you did at the lake." Are you fucking kidding me?

frankie big face · Post by **frankie big face** » Sat May 21, 2005 5:02 am

raisedbywolves wrote: The Star Wars EW had an article that I think sheds some light on the problems with the new trilogy. Lucas admits that he didn't really have enough material for a trilogy (hence the thoroughly superfluous 20 minute pod-racing scene), that he didn't really script out most of the dialogue until the actual shoot, and that he planned to fix everything in postproduction. I think the prequels suffer from a) an obvious lack of interest on Lucas's part to create anything approaching real characters or speakable dialogue and b) no characters filling in the charisma void created by the absence of Harrison Ford and Carrie Fisher. Even Lucas seems to have convinced himself that we were all entralled solely by the technology of the original series, when I think it was mostly about the characters. We liked them and cared about what happened to them. He was so busy filling every frame with moving digital things that he lost sight of what was really important. Who gives a shit about "Ani" and Padme when they're complete wooden ciphers? There's no simmering tension under their dialogue or any deeper layers of emotion than the ridiculously literal words coming out of their mouths. "Hold me like you did at the lake." Are you fucking kidding me?

I read that article and agree with everything you just said. I still liked the movie a lot.

The most important and valid point you make is about the actors themselves. There's no-one in any of the the three new movies that has a fraction of the charisma of Harrison Ford. Ewan MacGregor is good, but even he can't save the dialogue. And Liam Neeson was rendered idiotic by being forced to interact with digital creatures that weren't there. I think it would take a rare actor to pull off any of the pathetic dialogue in these three films.

The other problem with these films is that Lucas tries to make everyone so damn likeable and safe. In the first series, Han Solo and Princess Leia weren't always nice--sometimes they were even nasty or mean. When Han Solo kills Greedo, you're like "whoa, this guy's not fucking around." Now, we hear that Lucas wants to change that scene to show Greedo firing first, which is a way to make Han Solo seem nicer. Princess Leia is pretty much a bitch, which is why we like her. In these recent films, Anakin never succumbs to the dark side, per se--his reasons for killing are linked to trying to save his wife. So, all the bad things he does are in the name of love. Blecch.

I know and understand all these things, but the movie was fun and connected the dots to Episode IV way better than I ever expected Lucas could. Maybe I went in with low expectations, but I liked it and I will probably go see it again in Annville.

sparks · Post by **sparks** » Sun May 22, 2005 12:59 am

Hoblit wrote: 2. So you really think that everybody who enjoyed the movie is in some sort of denial?

Basically. I'm sure there are inexperienced kids out there who saw the movie and just didn't know better than to think it was great, but that aside I don't see how anyone with a full and honest approach to themselves could say this was a good flick. Maybe a fun one, in the way you can watch Under Siege 3 and say "well, that was kind of fun," but certainly not a -good- one. This was a bad movie, guys. Bad. You can enjoy it on some level, I guess, in that it fills in a puzzle piece in the thinly-woven plotline of Star Wars, but it's not a good flick, certainly not a masterful one (and "masterful" is something I would say about A New Hope or Empire) and you seriously can't delude yourself into thinking it is.

In response to frank, I'd have to say I agree with you for the most part--but I blame the failure of several otherwise-quite-decent actors to pull this movie through on simple poor direction and writing. You can't put icing on dog leavings and say it's cake. These guys had nothing, nothing to work with, and given that, I would say that MacGregor pulled off quite a performance, simply because it was adequate in a sea of inadequacy.

sparks · Post by **sparks** » Sun May 22, 2005 1:03 am

mkilly wrote:
Hoblit wrote:Agreed, Darth Vader's 'NOOOOO!' made me cringe a little bit.
I thought that was funny. The crap line was "Hold me like you held me by the lake on Naboo!" There were more crap lines but that one was hilariously awful.

As crap lines go, I was rather fond of the whole:

"You did it because you knew how much I love you."

"No, I did it because I know how much I love you."

"I love you."

"I really love you"

-bit. No, not verbatim, but I swear it was just like that. It was probably the funniest moment in the movie.

Adam! · Post by **Adam!** » Sun May 22, 2005 8:50 am

sparks wrote:
Hoblit wrote: 2. So you really think that everybody who enjoyed the movie is in some sort of denial?
Basically.

sparks wrote:I came in with a pretty open, optimistic mind, and I was totally let down.

I'm sorry, but let me get this straight: after seeing the first two you walked into this one with high expectations? Or even "normal" expectations? Or anything other than lowest of low expectations? Because if you did, I wouldn't be telling other people they are the ones in denial. I walked in expecting a disaster, and I got an exciting movie with clunky dialogue, thin characters and pacing issues. Anyone who expected more is living in a fantasy land.

WeaselSlayer · Post by **WeaselSlayer** » Sun May 22, 2005 11:44 am

I enjoyed this movie a lot, and definitely not through denial. I didn't want to enjoy it. I wanted to hate it and laugh at all the people who said it was good, but I ended up being thoroughly entertained. I mean, fuckin' Yoda and Sammy J. were amazing.

sparks · Post by **sparks** » Sun May 22, 2005 3:01 pm

Puce wrote: I'm sorry, but let me get this straight: after seeing the first two you walked into this one with high expectations? Or even "normal" expectations? Or anything other than lowest of low expectations? Because if you did, I wouldn't be telling other people they are the ones in denial. I walked in expecting a disaster, and I got an exciting movie with clunky dialogue, thin characters and pacing issues. Anyone who expected more is living in a fantasy land.

I was told by multiple people who hated I and II that it was better than Empire (to them, the best SW movie). I didn't believe this for a minute, but as a result I had higher expectations than were even remotely reasonable.

It was exciting in places, but I really can't immerse myself for more than a few minutes in something that's silly and mostly dull just for the sake of its brand name. I can watch it, even occasionally enjoy it, but I can't be -in- it, actually giving a damn about any of the characters or events when they're so pitifully constructed. Brand name alone, at least in my opinion, is what has reasonable people slobbering over this crapfest.

jimtyrrell · Post by **jimtyrrell** » Sun May 22, 2005 4:09 pm

I saw this movie at a place where they serve pizza and beer. So I knew that regardless of what I thought of the film, I would have a good time. Took a lot of the pressure off.
I guess I liked the movie. It had serious flaws, yeah, but it was better than expected in a few ways too.

SPOILERS:

I liked the idea that R2D2 retained memory of the events in Episodes I-III, while C3PO did not. Actually, I bet a lot of people are jealous of C3PO in this respect.

I thought the baby Leia was well-chosen. Luke just looked like some baby, but Leia looked like she would grow up to be Leia, to me anyway.

frankie big face · Post by **frankie big face** » Sun May 22, 2005 4:09 pm

sparks wrote:Brand name alone, at least in my opinion, is what has reasonable people slobbering over this crapfest.

You know what? You can fucking kiss my ass.

c.layne · Post by **c.layne** » Sun May 22, 2005 4:28 pm

ahahahahahahahahhahahahahaha

Post by **Lunkhead** » Sun May 22, 2005 4:53 pm

Sparks, some people out there don't judge films by the quality of the dialog/acting/story. None of that stuff has anything to do with whether a movie is "good" or not to them. I don't mean anybody here on the boards, since I don't really know any of you well enough to have any idea how you judge whether a movie is good. I just mean that in general those aren't really important factors to a large swath of the movie-going public, because if they were movies would probably have better acting and dialog. It certainly isn't for lack of good writers and actors in the world that popular movies often feature bad acting and dialog.

I think part of why I personally have a harder time accepting bad acting and dialog in these movies than in others is because George Lucas basically had unlimited resources to make them as good as possible. And he knew virtually everyone on earth would go watch them. Why not drop a few million on hiring someone or some people to make sure he had the best scripts he could possibly have, and drop a few tens of millions more making sure he had the best actors he could have? I don't get it. He's either power mad or no one was able to criticize him or some combination of both.

Hoblit · Post by **Hoblit** » Sun May 22, 2005 5:27 pm

frankie big face wrote:
sparks wrote:Brand name alone, at least in my opinion, is what has reasonable people slobbering over this crapfest.
You know what? You can fucking kiss my ass.

I'm going to go see this movie again tomorrow night.

mkilly · Post by **mkilly** » Sun May 22, 2005 5:54 pm

sparks wrote:I'm sure there are inexperienced kids out there who saw the movie and just didn't know better than to think it was great, but that aside I don't see how anyone with a full and honest approach to themselves could say this was a good flick.

Dude, you are silly. One day we'll mention this and you'll be all like "god damn, was I silly." EXHIBIT ONE: rottentomatoes. EXHIBIT TWO: roger ebert. You are not the end-all be-all arbiter of what is good and band in the world of cinema. Opinions, anyway, are subjective, not objective. With that in mind it is clear that many disagree with you and find the film "good." I would very strongly hesitate to say that they're absolutely wrong and the film is wholly without merit.

sparks wrote:It was exciting in places, but I really can't immerse myself for more than a few minutes in something that's silly and mostly dull just for the sake of its brand name.

So did you hate "Jedi" as much as you hated this? This didn't even have any Ewoks or a speaking role for Jar-Jar Binks.

sparks · Post by **sparks** » Mon May 23, 2005 3:22 pm

The Ewoks were like Shakespeare next to the groaning cutesy droids, man. And let's not forget that R2D2 set enemies on fire with his jetpack. HIS JETPACK. I felt the need for both italics and bold, and I hope you see why. If, five or six or whatever years ago, someone had told me that in the final starwars movie, androids groan in comic disappointment when their limbs are severed, Yoda is written to say sentences you'd hear coming from any other character, just backwards, and that, to top it off, R2D2 spurts oil on his enemies and sets them ablaze with his amazing rocketpack, I would probably have laughed at that person and said: "Hey, you are a pretty stupid person."

Really, I could have dealt with all of this that much better if there'd been a halfway decent screenwriter. These movies would never, NEVER have seen the light of day on their own right.

I actually hate Jedi less now that the plot has been made clearer. I always thought the Emperor was like the lamest ultra-baddie in the world as a kid, and it's mostly because he didn't have a background, or even a hint of one. The only thing these movies have done for me is make the old ones seem better, both by (compliment) the expanded plotline and by (detriment) showing us all just how bad a decent series of movies could have been.

WeaselSlayer · Post by **WeaselSlayer** » Mon May 23, 2005 3:26 pm

Charlie Kaufman should write episode 7, 8, and 9.

Dan Wrekenhaus 2 · Post by **Dan Wrekenhaus 2** » Mon May 23, 2005 3:43 pm

I vote for Steve Oedekerk.

Leaf · Post by **Leaf** » Mon May 23, 2005 3:46 pm

I'm taking my son to see this tonight. I personally, while loathing Jar Jar, still enjoyed the first two of the newer ones, and I don't really expect to be disappointed. I understand this is, after all, kid's movies.

Looking forward to it!!

Kamakura · Post by **Kamakura** » Mon May 23, 2005 4:23 pm

Leaf wrote:I understand this is, after all, kid's movies.

WTF?

Leaf wrote:Looking forward to it!!

Me too!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/4570947.stm
100 Gazillion people can't be wrong... Can they Sparks?

raisedbywolves · Post by **raisedbywolves** » Mon May 23, 2005 7:30 pm

Kamakura wrote: 100 Gazillion people can't be wrong... Can they Sparks?

Meet the Fockers is the highest-grossing live action comedy of all time. Popularity does not equal quality.

roymond · Post by **roymond** » Mon May 23, 2005 7:40 pm

Lunkhead wrote:George Lucas basically had unlimited resources to make them as good as possible. And he knew virtually everyone on earth would go watch them. Why not drop a few million on hiring someone or some people to make sure he had the best scripts he could possibly have, and drop a few tens of millions more making sure he had the best actors he could have? I don't get it. He's either power mad or no one was able to criticize him or some combination of both.

The biggest mistake successful artists make is to trust themselves with too much. They can't do it all. Nobody can. The successful writer who insists they can edit their own books, or the band that thinks it can run its own label. Very rare are those that can be self-critical enough to save themselves from themselves. Locus is no exception. You nailed it right here.

Leaf · Post by **Leaf** » Mon May 23, 2005 10:10 pm

Damn.

I really really wanted to love this movie.

Half way through... I realized... anyone who gre up on teh originals ( saw Star wars 26 times when it came out... I was five the first time... and I used to go over and over... I was ...obsessed. Remember when they used to play it in the cinema each christmas? I do....)

Anyway, I realized, this movie is all about unrealized expectations. It could NEVER EVER be what we all want it to be.

So, it had some good moments, some bad. I won't post any spoilers... but I do recall getting a bit bored in it, and that depressed me. I just think if they had a better reason for him to turn... I mean c'mon buddy... if you see this dire vision... go to a doctor. You got spaceships andlight sabers, absolute freakin miracles of science, and you won' t trust your medical system. It makes Darth Vader seem retarded, not the menacing threat he was in my childhood.

I AM looking forward to an obsessive afternoon watching all six in a row though.

And after those SUPER amazing saber battles... I realized that Darth and Obi's battle in "new hope" sucked total ass.

Yeah... it was ok, but it didn't make me want to watch it over and over... and yet, I don't think it ever could. The good ones were already made. What we really need is a talented story for 7,8 and 9. This whole epic prequel basically could never do it...cause we know what happens.

Ah well..

nuero · Post by **nuero** » Mon May 23, 2005 10:24 pm

raisedbywolves wrote:
Kamakura wrote: 100 Gazillion people can't be wrong... Can they Sparks?
Meet the Fockers is the highest-grossing live action comedy of all time. Popularity does not equal quality.

Also, I saw this before I knew how much I enjoyed it. That's sort of where that theory falls apart. Star Wars has thirty years of people waiting to see how this movie ends, so it's not like it was going to be a box-office failure.