Generic wrote:but Cse, what you believe in this case may very well betray a lot about the kind fo person you are.
With luck, yes. How am I supposed to find out what kind of person I am otherwise?
Generic wrote:So. What do you mean when you say, "Jews have a lot of karma points in reserve from the whole Nazi thing, which is I believe what got us into the whole mess in the first place."? Is that some implication that the Jewish history of abuse is the reason for the Palistinian conflict right now?
The way I understand it, the UN put the Jewish refugees (who were already refugeeing over there anyway) into Palestine because they were being mistreated in Germany post-war, and they figured they deserved their own land after all the shit they went through during the war. I meant that WWII was the original cause for the current conflict, not the Jewish history of abuse. I assume that if there was no WWII, the Jews would have had no reason to emigrate to the area. But I could be wrong.
Generic wrote:And when you say, "If they want to blow each other up over some land, it only invalidates their religions," do you mean to say that Israelites should just kneel down and let people crash vehicles into the buildings? "Here's the back of my head, mister? Is the shot clean enough?"
I meant: If you think your religion is telling you to kill a bunch of people over some land, then you're a fucktard.
To answer your question, yes. Because if the Israelites just knelt down and agreed to the borders established in 1967 I don't believe there would be any more violence. Well, at least not relating to this particular issue.
Generic wrote:"Our plan is to let them blow each other to kingdom come and then move in and take all their holy oil from that ugly desert wasteland..." So it's okay to intervene in ancient conflicts in Kosovo, it's okay to spend exorbitant amounts of taxpayer money to dethrone a dictator who, hoever horrific his treatment of his own people, wasn't bothering us, but we have no business in Israel, and should just let them all kill each other?
Well that was obviously joking. If I was in office, I'd probably try to find some way to make Israel respect the pre-established borders. But then again, if I was in office, I'd know a lot more about it than I do now, so who knows? And of course, there's no way I'd get into office without supporting Israel, because for some reason people equate being against Israel's actions with being anti-Jew.
As for the second part, it's a totally different situation. Israel/Palestine is not a case where a dictator is oppressing his own people, nor is it a case where a powerful country is conquering weaker ones. Well, actually it sort of is. Here's how it is, the way I understand it (please correct me if I'm wrong -- foreign policy is just a hobby for me):
pre-1940's: the whole area is occupied by the british and settled upon by the arabs (the Palestinians, who are Semetic, IIRC) with a population density of about Vermont. Some Jews also live there.
Also, around this time, high Jewish officals decide to emigrate to the area and use wars to gradually conquer more and more land and eventually take back the land that is promised them in the Bible. I believe this is uncontested, as there are letters documenting it. Now, I don't know how this works into the whole WWII stuff, or when exactly this "plan" was conceived.
1940's: Britian gives the land to the UN, saying "do whatever you want with it." The UN decides to split the land up and give half (argueably the better half) to the Jews, creating a state called Israel and another state called Palestine. This pisses the Arabs off.
post 1940's: lots of wars. I don't know who exactly started them, or if Palestine or Israel was happy with the original boundaries, but I'm pretty sure Isreal wasn't, and began conquering Palestine little by little. Palestine never gets their own state. Israel ignores parts of the Geneva convention and appears to not have to listen to anything the UN says, since the US vetos any UN decision against Israel, even if every other country voted the other way. Arabs feel slighted and start to develop a major hate for the US.
2000: By now, most Israelis and Palestinians just want an end to all the fighting. Rabin is Prime Minister and, under Clinton, has talks with Arafat and they both agree on the borders set in an Oslo agreement. Everyone thinks it's over. Until Rabin gets assassinated by a right-wing Jew. The right-wing side takes over, trashes the agreement, and continues the fighting.
post 2000: Despite the fact that there is little to no seperation of church and state, and the Israeli military is highly revered and well-desciplined, 600 members of the military (refusniks) declare that they'll fight Palestine no more. Ariel Sharon declares he's tired of fighting. Hope springs once more.
But I don't know why I'm talking. The declaration of the Refusniks says it all:
http://www.spectacle.org/0302/refuse.html
(she's lump, she's lump, she's lump, she's in my bed....)