The Bad Songs

[thehipcola]

I don't know how you can not separate them. I think about it linearly. I don't record a song AS I'm writing it, so the production is what takes place after the song is already written. It has nothing to do with the writing process, at least in my case

I didn't mean to imply that. My assertion is that the standard of well produced music that most of us have, which is that which we hear on the radio, is not generally a benchmark for very good songwriting from a creative standpoint. Most of what is on the radio is pretty much cookie cutter and bland. But you're right, there are kids making awful recordings of the same cookie cutter and bland music in their garages.

Fair enough...we are way different... I do write and record at the same time...it's a function of my setup and how I've evolved as a songwriter over the years. It certainly doesn't make it better....just how it works for me. Production points are creative tools that become songwriting in my case.

And I don't really listen to radio, so I guess I can't discuss that with much authority. I don't consider radio fodder to be any kind of standard. We can agree on the non-goodness of radio crap, for sure.

[a bebop a rebop]

In electronic music it's very difficult to separate the song-writing from the production. Electronic music is in equal parts 1) the melodies, harmonies, lyrics, or whatever else you write in there but also 2) the sounds you want, which boils down to production. Most music out there these days is partly or primarily electronic, so production plays a large role.

That obviously doesn't directly apply to you (KMS), but in general I don't see how a bad-sounding recording (tape hiss, or clipping, or whatever) can be considered more likely to be a gem than a well-produced song, as you seem to imply a couple of posts back. I'll listen through the imperfections to get to the song, but I'd rather they not be there, generally speaking.

EDIT: Ok, you've pre-emptively responded to this. Forgive me.

[Kill Me Sarah]

If I thought production was going to be the final basis by which my songs are judged, I wouldn't bother at all. ... After all, most of the slickly produced stuff you hear on the airwaves is NOT produced by the artists that made it.

Well, it seems to me that this be the DIY era, so are you waiting for some producer to translate your unearthed chunk of raw precious metal into radio friendly fodder? I think there's some value in trying to use the tools that are soooo amazingly available and affordable for home use to try and get there on your own, using your own artistic vision and controlling that end of the process. Why not?

I agree, and a lot of my effort IS spent trying to make it sound good coming out of my speakers But my point is, there are people here who have more know how and more equipment when it comes to polishing things up. Similarly there are people here who could rip me to shreds in pure, raw, musicianship. But I'm not competing with people's recordings or their killer chops. I'm competing with the actual song, and to me, a song is not defined by a recording, it is defined by what a person can sit down in front of you and perform for you. You can add all kinds of neat layers and tricks to a recording after the song is written, but those layers and tricks, in my eyes, are not the true definition of the song. Any number of bands around today could probably sit in their studio and work up a song that is the superior in terms of production and downright playing ability to any Bob Dylan song ever written, but I'd still rather listen to the Bob Dylan demo.

[ephedream]

I agree, and a lot of my effort IS spent trying to make it sound good coming out of my speakers

That's all anyone can really ask, considering the variables of experience, gear and chops..right? Cool man!

[Kill Me Sarah]

Fair enough...we are way different... I do write and record at the same time...it's a function of my setup and how I've evolved as a songwriter over the years. It certainly doesn't make it better....just how it works for me. Production points are creative tools that become songwriting in my case.

See, I think that's awesome, and when I've worked with other musicians and with better equipment, that is sometimes the case even for me. But, and again this is just me, I still think that if I can't sit down with my acoustic guitar or sit down at a piano, by myself, and play the song for you, then I don't really have much of a song. Case in point: anyone ever seen Jonny Greenwood and Thom Yorke play Paranoid Android acoustic? It rocks.

Edit: By the way, what's taking so long on this week's match?

[thehipcola]

heh..too fast ephedream....ditto.

not everyone can do everything...trying is what the whole thing is about. I just hate like heck to hear people pull out of the race (really or figuratively) 'cuz they figure theres no way to compete or show up against someone who has those chops or skills. That's just me though. I don't "get" a lot of lofi type stuff, because my gut tells me it's a copout from trying to sound better. The truth may be that I need to spend more time with that idiom to understand what it's all about.

edit: ahh yes, the "can you play it live" point...I've always struggled with that, since the very first band I played in with Leaf in highschool. It's a tough one. Good point, KMS.

[a bebop a rebop]

Ever seen them play Kid A acoustic? Doubtful. And that's my favorite Radiohead album.

My opinion on performance/recording is exactly the opposite of yours; ie, what I'm hearing coming out of my speakers is what's important to me. With Bob Dylan, it's the voice and the stories. With Aphex Twin, on the other hand, it is precisely the production that I am listening to and loving.

[ephedream]

That's also a good point, rebop. Hmm.

[erik]

I guess it could be argued that less time spent producing means more time reworking that prechorus run, or tightening the lyrics in the middle 8, but I also will suggest that production is such a grey area that both of those things could easily fall under that label. How do we seperate them? Where is the line?

Oh come on. I mean, if you produce and write your music at the same time, I can understand how songwriting and production are <i>intertwined</i> for you, but they're not the same thing. We can seperate them like this:

Songwriting: every part of making a song that can be notated on a piece of paper so that other musicians can read and then playback the notations, thereby recreating a song which is identifiable as a version of the original. Making up words, vocal melodies, instrument melodies and chords, and beats for a song is songwriting.

Production: Everything else.

I'm not trying to poo-poo anyone's songwriting style, or trying to say that songwriting must come first, and production must come later, or anything like that.

But writing lyrics is not production. Come on now.

[ephedream]

fair enough erikb, but reworking those lyrics most definitely (to me) IS production. working the cadence, rythmns, structure, maybe the bflat to bflat9 in the chorus...whatever, all of that can be considered production. I know they may germinate seprately, but they, in the end, to me, become one and the same.

[thehipcola]

I see erik's point, but I think it's not as easily segregated as that. At least not for me. I guess it depends on how you approach writing a song. Do you sit down with notation paper and start notating, or do you sit down at your DAW and start recording? Or something in between? I'd wager everything in between and including those extremes are well represented in the SF community.

[erik]

fair enough erikb, but reworking those lyrics most definitely (to me) IS production. working the cadence, rythmns, structure, maybe the bflat to bflat9 in the chorus...whatever, all of that can be considered production. I know they may germinate seprately, but they, in the end, to me, become one and the same.

Define production.

[erik]

I see erik's point, but I think it's not as easily segregated as that. At least not for me. I guess it depends on how you approach writing a song. Do you sit down with notation paper and start notating, or do you sit down at your DAW and start recording? Or something in between? I'd wager everything in between and including those extremes are well represented in the SF community.

I'm not trying to segregate them, I'm trying to define them. If you do both at once, cool. I can eat a peanut butter and honey sandwhich, but that doesn't mean that peanut butter and honey are the same thing. They're just in the same place at the same time.

[ephedream]

well, to my mind, it's not easily defined. That's why I think they aren't easily seperated, as I mentioned. As KMS stated, for him, writing something he can reproduce for me, the listener, with his instrument of choice, would probably define the seperation, but since I work them together from a song's inseption, they don't seperate that easily. I could, I'm sure, take a tune I've written/recorded, and boil it down to an acoustic guitar or piano version for performance, but they dont' often start that way for me.

How would you define it?

[thehipcola]

Well to me, they both add up to making a sandwich. I guess that's where we differ. I don't need to make a peanut butter sandwich and a honey sandwich and put them together...I can make one sandwich out of that. And have intended it that way from inception.

[erik]

Songwriting: every part of making a song that can be notated on a piece of paper so that other musicians can read and then playback the notations, thereby recreating a song which is identifiable as a version of the original. Making up words, vocal melodies, instrument melodies and chords, and beats for a song is songwriting.

Production: Everything else.

If you can't define production, then why are you sure that writing lyrics is a production issue, instead of a songwriting issue?

[ephedream]

i didn't say that erik. I said reworking. And I also said it was not sure, quite the opposite, not easily defined. It's a personal workflow choice for me.

[ephedream]

great points int his thread...makes ya think!

gonna go and try and get some recording done for this weeks fight. l8r!

[anti-m]

Imagine a writer who has fabulous ideas, but can't spell, and has a terrible grasp of grammar--

its hard for people too understand what their trying to say because evertime you try to see to the point the way their talking about things are not correct and idees get lost along the way.

Ok, that was a lame attempt. But I’m sure you see where I’m ineptly going with this.

Without a doubt, inspiration/creative genius is important. And certainly, many, if not most folks are left high and dry for years waiting for a muse that never shows up. Hard work is no guarantee that the muse will go home with you… but investing some of that 99% perspiration in refining your technique will help you convey your message should you get lucky!

If you’re already graced with creativity and vision, why not spend a little time learning some of the basics of technique? I’m neither a creative genius, nor a technical prodigy, nor a recording whiz…but I like to think that I’m working toward improving in these departments. (Ok… maybe not in the technical wizardry. I guess I don’t really care to wank away on pentatonic scales or whathaveyou.) I do take criticism seriously and solicit advice. I like to think that the Songfight community is helping me improve. It seems to me that most folks here are looking to improve their craft / learn some skills based on Songfight feedback / boards. (Unless you’ve already learned everything you could possibly need to know and you’re only out to WIN!)

Personally, I tend to like pared down / lo-fi / “transparentâ€

[erik]

i didn't say that erik. I said reworking. And I also said it was not sure, quite the opposite, not easily defined. It's a personal workflow choice for me.

That is indeed the word you used. My apologies for not really understanding the difference between reworking and writing. I may have also misunderstood you when you said "reworking those lyrics most definitely (to me) IS production."

[ephedream]

That is indeed the word you used. My apologies for not really understanding the difference between reworking and writing. I may have also misunderstood you when you said "reworking those lyrics most definitely (to me) IS production."

Well I don't want to litter the thread with something I already said, I read that's a no-no here...so pm me about it if you want further clarification on those words. but i figger you probably get more than you let on.

ok really gotta go...thanks for the discute everyone!

.e

[thehipcola]

Producing a minimal mix that sounds good is a skill that doesn't necessarily require lots of fancy equipment.

Excellent point, and it can require a disproportionate amount of attention to production to achieve. Good basic mixes that don't use flashy gimmicks to sound "sweet" are really challenging to make work.