The Song Fight Bulletin Board

jolly roger wrote:Never compress the final track!

Seconded, unless it's for artistic effect. But if you're compressing to reduce the dynamic range of your song, first ask yourself "Self, do I really want less dynamics in my song?" and if the answer is yes, go back and fix it in the mix*. If you're using a compressor on the 2-buss to gain volume, please kick yourself in the head.

* The above rant assumes you have unlimited time to tweak your mix, which you probably don't. [size=0]The 'You' in this case is not Jolly Roger. Obviously.[/size]

Well, that explains it then, that's where I've been f**king up. I've been compressing my bass track and putting a mild compression on the final mix to keep things from jumping out and peaking the meter. That's why I've been losing the separation of the instruments, mainly my bass guitar and kick. Thanks for that.

Just curious, but don't most mastering houses use some sort of a multi-press in the process? Could be totally wrong, that was my impression. Though I suppose that is to help increase loudness at the expense of dynamic range, which is the bane of many a modern recording. Actually, I guess that answers my own question. If anyone can illuminate, that would be great, thanks.

Well, as a comparison, I'm going to post it in this thread with and without my compression settings on the final mix and we can compare it first hand. I'm honestly up in the air on which I like better. As soon as I can find a way to compress my final mix AND keep the bottom end tones separated, I'll be happy.

Freddielove wrote:Just curious, but don't most mastering houses use some sort of a multi-press in the process?

Not usually. That seems to be a myth perpetuated by companies who want to sell hobbyists expensive multiband compressor plugins. ME'[size=0]--the appostrophe use is intentional, don't correct me on it--[/size]s will use a multiband to fix a problem with the mix; because us do-it-all-yourself-ers have access to the mix, if there is a problem it's best to go back into the mix and fix it there.

Puce wrote: If you're using a compressor on the 2-buss to gain volume, please kick yourself in the head.

*kicks self in head*

Never again.

A great way of compressing, but still keeping the seperation between the kik and bass, is to sidechain. I often compres the bass with it side chained to the kik.
I believe the waves C3 has this option, Im not sure, I do it using the native plugins on my soundcard.

It makes a serious difference in keeping the seperation and avoiding the mud at the bottom.


But then I guess I need a head kicking, for I do sometimes put a multiband on th 2-buss.... not always, but I have done it.

Ok, I see you're not supposed to anyway, but why would you use a compressor on the buss if you can just use a limiter after mixdown?

Also, in looking stuff up discussed here I found a good article on uses of compression http://www.digido.com/modules.php?name= ... icle&sid=7 from Bob Katz.

Apologies if this has already been posted.

Me$$iah wrote:A great way of compressing, but still keeping the seperation between the kik and bass, is to sidechain. I often compres the bass with it side chained to the kik.
I believe the waves C3 has this option, Im not sure, I do it using the native plugins on my soundcard.

It makes a serious difference in keeping the seperation and avoiding the mud at the bottom.


But then I guess I need a head kicking, for I do sometimes put a multiband on th 2-buss.... not always, but I have done it.

This is what I wanted to hear. Now if it actually works the way I need it to, that will be awesome. I'll follow up with my opinion after I try it. Now, can someone explain "side chaining" or is it a plug in of some sort?


By the way, I always see the other busses, but I never use them. I guess I haven't found a need yet, otherwise I'd be in here asking how to do "such & such" and someone woud say, "that's what the other busses are for, dipshit" << more than likely blue.

Billy's Little Trip wrote: Now, can someone explain "side chaining" or is it a plug in of some sort?

Here explained in Logic.

http://logicfaq.omega-art.com/html/faq22.htm#02

The concept I think would be the same in any program.

Freddielove wrote:

Billy's Little Trip wrote: Now, can someone explain "side chaining" or is it a plug in of some sort?

Here explained in Logic.

http://logicfaq.omega-art.com/html/faq22.htm#02

The concept I think would be the same in any program.

Thanks Freddie. I just skimmed it, but I'll have to put it into action to fully understand it. *bookmarked*

....by the way, now comes the use of the other busses, lol.

Billy's Little Trip wrote:

Me$$iah wrote:A great way of compressing, but still keeping the seperation between the kik and bass, is to sidechain. I often compres the bass with it side chained to the kik.
I believe the waves C3 has this option, Im not sure, I do it using the native plugins on my soundcard.

It makes a serious difference in keeping the seperation and avoiding the mud at the bottom.


But then I guess I need a head kicking, for I do sometimes put a multiband on th 2-buss.... not always, but I have done it.

This is what I wanted to hear. Now if it actually works the way I need it to, that will be awesome. I'll follow up with my opinion after I try it. Now, can someone explain "side chaining" or is it a plug in of some sort?


By the way, I always see the other busses, but I never use them. I guess I haven't found a need yet, otherwise I'd be in here asking how to do "such & such" and someone woud say, "that's what the other busses are for, dipshit" << more than likely blue.

mixing in surround or to different sets of speakers or general output paths.

compressing the output bus is done on every professional recording ever. what puce is saying is, don't use it for volume. it's what gives the mix its final bit of cohesion. it has classically been a single-band compressor, but i think most people are moving to multiband as they become more readily available.

OK, I mixed this song down with and without compression on the final mix. Keep in mind, I've been trying different compression setting for several weeks and writing them down so I can remember where I did what. I tried using standard factory pre sets, but they didn't work well for my style of playing and recording for some reason. So scrapped that idea and started trusting my ears. I've pretty much come up with settings I'm pretty happy with for now, but still tweaking. Plus different style songs need slight tweaking anyway, so I don't think I'll ever be able to say, "here's my bass setting from now on".

Version #1
Compression on individual tracks and compression on master mix down
The first thing you'll notice on this version is that everything is more lively, IE, snappier snare, clean highs, decent separation. But with this came sharp annoying highs in some of the vocals, mainly the main chorus. Also, the bass and kick were blending together, so I changed my bass notes higher and worked on keeping the kick heard. The only place I left the bass notes as is, is on the short drum and bass break on the intro before the song starts and between the choruses and verses. You will notice the first three bass notes, you can't even hear the kick hitting with each bass note. I feel I treated the bass track poorly in this song and I'm not happy about that at all. I'm going to try the side chaining thing next.


Version #2
Compression on individual tracks, no compression on master mix down
This version everything is here nicely, but the first thing you notice is that the snare is dull. No energy in my opinion. But everything is well heard and some of the annoying vocal highs are mellower.


Let's hear your opinion, because as I said, I'm up in the air, but leaning to compression on the master for final mix as long as I can successfully separate my kick and bass. I can easily EQ the annoying vocal highs.

This may be a bit off-topic, but I've been getting some pretty poor comments production-wise on my Gray Rainbow song, and I was wondering if you mixing-pros had some comments about it and how I can improve the mix. I definitely thought it was a better mix than last week, but I'm beginning to doubt it now that I'm reading the reviews. Any comments would be helpful, as I'm probably going to work on a CD through the summer, and I want it to sound as pro as possible. Thanks!

jolly roger wrote:Any comments would be helpful, as I'm probably going to work on a CD through the summer, and I want it to sound as pro as possible. Thanks!

Well, it isn't bad. Everything sounds pretty far in the back ground. You would have to start a thread where you describe your recording process from mics to mixing to really get constructive comments. I think the worst thing I hear is the kick drum.

The details are important for this kind of critique. Don't leave anything out.

Ken

Billy's Little Trip wrote:Version #1
Compression on individual tracks and compression on master mix down
The first thing you'll notice on this version is that everything is more lively

I'm not so sure about that.

This version is louder, but once you balance the volume between the two, I find the compression-free version is more dynamic. Listen to the cymbal crash at the end of the first chorus for example.

That said, the kick and snare in the compressed version definitely sound better. So I think Puce's advice up-thread really applies here. If you like the sound of a mix with a compressor on the 2-bus, you should really identify *why* that's the case, and treat the individual tracks to achieve that result. Here, the compressor fattens up the kick and snare, so you probably want to bus them separately, and compress that bus only. (Or look into "parallel compression" as a way to fatten drum tones without overly affecting their dynamics.)

And when making judgments about compression, always compare different versions at the same volume. Our ears perceive frequency balances differently at different loudness levels (Google "equal loudness curves" to learn more,) so sometimes a louder track will sound brighter even though it isn't.

jolly roger wrote:some comments about it and how I can improve the mix.

I've been there! I'm no master, but here's some things to try:

1) Take the compression off everything
2) EQ the vocals (maybe cut somewhere in the middle and boost something low?)
3) Get the electric off to one (or both) side(s). If 2 tracks, hard pan them. Done.
4) Do your mix over stereo speakers and make sure it sounds good in the car before even listening to it on headphones
5) Find a way to make the bass (is there a bass?) shine and shimmer. If no bass, choose an instrument (only one) and make it bassier (just enough so it sounds fatter)

Do the pro's concur?

deshead wrote:

Billy's Little Trip wrote:Version #1
Compression on individual tracks and compression on master mix down
The first thing you'll notice on this version is that everything is more lively

I'm not so sure about that.

This version is louder, but once you balance the volume between the two, I find the compression-free version is more dynamic. Listen to the cymbal crash at the end of the first chorus for example.

That said, the kick and snare in the compressed version definitely sound better. So I think Puce's advice up-thread really applies here. If you like the sound of a mix with a compressor on the 2-bus, you should really identify *why* that's the case, and treat the individual tracks to achieve that result. Here, the compressor fattens up the kick and snare, so you probably want to bus them separately, and compress that bus only. (Or look into "parallel compression" as a way to fatten drum tones without overly affecting their dynamics.)

And when making judgments about compression, always compare different versions at the same volume. Our ears perceive frequency balances differently at different loudness levels (Google "equal loudness curves" to learn more,) so sometimes a louder track will sound brighter even though it isn't.

Damn, you're right. After I posted those two versions up there ^^^ I listened again. At that time I told myself, "I'm compressing the master on mix down from now on". I never even noticed they were at different volume levels until you said this. So I opened both versions and adjusted the volume level down on the first to match, and you are right....as usual.
I am losing total dynamics a little bit on the first version, even though the kick and snare sound sweet. I'm also learning more and more the need of the other busses. It really didn't click until you said "so you probably want to bus them separately, and compress that bus only". Now it all makes sense.
I'll read up on parallel compression. Sounds like a must.
Thanks for you help Des, and everyone else.

I think I can use this advice on my entry this week (King Me) because it's a fast punky/metal sound and it has some great guitar and drums, but seems to be running together too much. I really hate a smooshed together sound with no separation or snap.
-to be continued-

dont give up on compression. there's world and a half of difference between good and bad compressors.

Oh, I won't give up on compression, I'll just find better ways to use it.

My concern this week is getting my kick to punch without blowing the bottom out of the mix. Every time I get the kick up in the mix, it makes everything too boomy. So I just EQ'd a nice little peak at the 2k range for some more slap. I think it sounds ok, but I know there has to be a better way.