The Song Fight Bulletin Board

Posted: **Sun Feb 17, 2008 10:24 am**

Märk wrote:I'm not trying to start something here, just enlightening you to the fact that it's not just people here who perceive some sort of 'mutual admiration society' there.

Posted: **Sun Feb 17, 2008 11:13 am**

Märk wrote: ...he replied "That Frankie Bigface guy... man, his music is *terrible*...

I totally disagree with your friend.

Posted: **Sun Feb 17, 2008 11:14 am**

Frankie, I think you might be a little oversensitive on this issue. I've shown a lot of non-Songfighters music from Songfight/Somesongs, and they don't react to it the same way most of us do. Some of the people I've met have disliked your music. So what? What would you think if Sven's friend had said this instead?

Märk wrote:...he suspects there is a clique there that always votes each others' songs up. I asked him why he thought this, and he replied "That band Octothorpe... man, their music is *terrible*, but they always gets really high marks. They must be getting their friends to vote them up or something".

Of course, people who Songfight, and have been at this game for longer tend to appreciate the # more than neophytes do. I tend to be a lot more forgiving of Octothorpe songs than I was when I first arrived at the site, because I learned that they have a very idiosyncratic style that they've honed. Ditto Roymond, WreckdoM, Johnny Cashpoint, and a whole bunch of people who don't even fight anymore.

I've shown non-Songfighters your music, Frankie. My roommate loves it, but my fiancée hates it. Does that make it seem like the people who know you (either in real life or on the boards) are more likely to vote your songs higher? Hell yes it does. Because we are more likely to do so than your average passerby. Is that a bad thing? Somesongs has an aesthetic. Like any community, there's a collective taste that dominates most of the ratings on Somesongs. And if you really think Frankie Big Face's music is terrible (such people exist, let's acknowledge and get over that fact), then maybe Somesongs isn't the music community for you, because it's populated by people who for the most part think Frankie's music is really good. And that's not likely to change anytime soon.

So Sven, I'd say, in response to your comment:

Also, your explanation about seeing something unfamiliar and skipping over it for something 'tried tested and true' does not help your cause at all. Why the hell would anyone new want to post songs there after reading that?

People would want to post new songs after reading that out of a desire to become a member of this community. If I had to choose between getting hundreds of comments from strangers (a la YouTube), or getting a small handful of comments from people whose opinions I actually care about (a la Somesongs), I'll go with the Somesongs route every time. The community aspect of the whole thing is what makes it so beautiful.

Plus, if you feel that not enough people comment on your songs, then bite the bullet and comment on some strangers' music. When I noticed that Tuuur left comments on my entire back catalog, the first thing I did was go listen to his music, because suddenly I wanted to know who this guy was and return the favor. Why is this so difficult to get? Nobody joins a community as an already-respected member. And if your friend wasn't willing to walk over hot coals for the few weeks it would've taken for people to get to know him, then tell him to go sign up for Sixty-One, or the Garageband message board, or something.

Posted: **Sun Feb 17, 2008 11:36 am**

I personally like every song I've ever heard on SomeSongs.com

Vote BLT 2008

Posted: **Sun Feb 17, 2008 11:52 am**

Generic wrote:Frankie, I think you might be a little oversensitive on this issue, etc.

I'm not overly sensitive on this issue. I agree with what you are saying essentially and your Octothorpe example is a good one. I don't mind/care if people don't like my music--it's not for everyone.

This idea of a mutual admiration society is bullshit unless you extend it to the entire SF/SS crowd. I'm not going to single people out, but there are a LOT of people here who get way more positive feedback than they'd get elsewhere simply because they have been here for so long and have made a bunch of friends. Ever go to a SF Live event? There are people who can't even make it through their own songs getting applause because they're members of the SF clique. In a bar or a club where people paid to see them, they'd get booed off the stage or worse. So to act like there are a few artists on somesongs who vote each other's songs up to feed each other's egos is asinine. This whole scene is a mutual admiration society and Sven is as much a part of it as you or I.

Posted: **Sun Feb 17, 2008 12:07 pm**

frankie big face wrote:
Generic wrote:Ever go to a SF Live event? There are people who can't even make it through their own songs getting applause because they're members of the SF clique.

WELL WHY DON'T YOU JUST COME OUT AND SAY "MARCUS KELLIS" HERE, FRANK.

Posted: **Sun Feb 17, 2008 12:11 pm**

HAHAHAHA. Any applause you got at a SF event was well-deserved, my man!

And by the way, Generic, maybe instead of inserting Octothorpe's name into Sven's friend's "quote," why don't you insert your own and then see how you feel being called a cheater? If that seems all right to you, then I guess you can call me oversensitive.

Posted: **Sun Feb 17, 2008 12:20 pm**

man, everyone is so testy this morning, over such a little thing has having friends.

if sven's friend wanted to do something about his perception of somesongs, he could have told a bunch of his friends about it, to go register and vote sven's friend's songs nice and comment about how great they are. and that wouldn't be a bad thing to have more people participating at somesongs, even if they are sven's friends.

the idea of frankie friend flooding his songs is laughable. he's the last guy that needs to do that.

friends aren't a bad thing. they are a good thing. tell your friends about somesongs and make your own little mutual admiration society. or make friends there by participating more beyond submitting a song. but complaining about not having enough friends supporting you just sounds like someone that is interested more in reaffirmation than real feedback.

frankly (no pun intended...), i find myself giving more honest feedback to strangers and that works both ways.

Posted: **Sun Feb 17, 2008 3:51 pm**

someone wrote:...he suspects there is a clique there that always votes each others' songs up. I asked him why he thought this, and he replied "That band Octothorpe... man, their music is *terrible*, but they always gets really high marks. They must be getting their friends to vote them up or something".

Hey! Hey! Hey! Go pick on someone your own size! Hahahaha! Last time I noticed, there were some pretty ruthless comments about our stuff on somesongs. As far as waiting for reviews goes, remember that not everything runs at the speed of SongFight!. I think we over here have expectiations of immediate gratification (or immediate mutilation, whichever) that we shouldn't impose on somesongs. One more key point. The key word in "mutual admiration society" isn't "admiration", it's "mutual".

SPUD

Posted: **Sun Feb 17, 2008 4:04 pm**

frankie big face wrote: And by the way, Generic, maybe instead of inserting Octothorpe's name into Sven's friend's "quote," why don't you insert your own and then see how you feel being called a cheater? If that seems all right to you, then I guess you can call me oversensitive.

I don't doubt that my songs get higher ratings in general than they would if none of the people voting on them knew who I was. That's basically just a part of the system. Of course, I also don't think that's "cheating."

It's like this: at Hillel House, we had an election my freshman year for House Manager (basically president). This is kind of a big deal. There were two candidates: the incumbent, and a pair of guys we'd never met before, running a joint ticket. The discussion was lengthy, but the crux of it was: "If these two guys really care, how come we've never seen them here before?" So we re-elected the incumbent, and the two guys cried out "This is bullshit, you're just voting your friends, you're perpetuating the system." Well, we knew the previous manager because she was involved in the same group as us. So if she "cheated" by having a pre-existing relationship with the entire voting constituency, so what? That's how you do it.

So I see you, Frankie, reading these comments, and getting very defensive (maybe you're not, but it seems that way to me from what I'm reading) about an accusation of something that I don't think is cheating, or even a bad thing, really. You shouldn't need to defend your own membership in this community; rejoice in it!

Posted: **Sun Feb 17, 2008 4:24 pm**

Well put, Jon. I have posted many times here that Octothorpe, for one, has no misconceptions about how good our music is. We leave that for the pop stars

However, we do feel that there is more than one reason that people might like it. First among these is that they might like US. They might like how we perform. They might like the way we dress. They might perceive that we are having fun doing it. All of these contribute to someone's enjoyment of the overall package. Are these "cheating"? Nothing exists in a vacuum.

SPUD

Posted: **Sun Feb 17, 2008 5:34 pm**

Märk wrote:He must be getting his friends to vote him up or something".

This is the part of Sven's post I am referring to when I say "cheating," not being part of a community or whatever, Jon. I've never asked my friends to "vote me up" on somesongs and anyone who thinks I have can suck it. Is that defensive enough for you?

Posted: **Sun Feb 17, 2008 6:04 pm**

Man. Ever wished you never said anything?

For the record, I understand perfectly what goes on at somesongs, and why. I'm guilty of it myself. I find myself giving songs by, for instance, Pumpkin Buzzard a lot more credit than they probably deserve, because I like that style. And besides, with Blue and I downvoting every single Frankie song, a bit of balance is restored in the universe anyway.

Posted: **Sun Feb 17, 2008 6:11 pm**

Wow, felt like I rated a ton of songs last week and now there are all new ones. I'll get busy again on Tuesday on the train to Washington. Do you guys still listen and rate songs there or just argue about it?

Posted: **Sun Feb 17, 2008 6:24 pm**

frankie big face wrote:
Märk wrote:He must be getting his friends to vote him up or something".
This is the part of Sven's post I am referring to when I say "cheating," not being part of a community or whatever, Jon.

Yeah, the thing that bugs me whenever people say something like "Erik (or whoever) gets votes for some reason other than the quality of his music" is NOT that someone dislikes my music, it's that they posess a unique blend of ignorance and arrogance which results in the notion that people who disagree with them on matters of taste must be behaving disingeneously.

Simply put, if you hate my music, fine. If you think my fans are liars, then 1) fuck off, and 2) everyone doesn't have to think like you do, princess.

Posted: **Sun Feb 17, 2008 8:03 pm**

Man, I wish people would vote MY songs up based on things other than the quality.

Posted: **Sun Feb 17, 2008 8:26 pm**

What I like about somesongs is that you don't even need to listen to the songs - you can just run down the page ticking the "good" and "bad" buttons. That's a great time-saver to a busy man like myself.

Posted: **Sun Feb 17, 2008 8:28 pm**

Caravan Ray wrote:What I like about somesongs is that you don't even need to listen to the songs - you can just run down the page ticking the "good" and "bad" buttons. That's a great time-saver to a busy man like myself.

You tick the "good" button?!

Posted: **Mon Feb 18, 2008 10:48 am**

Boy, I step away for a second and I miss all the excitement. For the record, my initial "sour grapes" statement that seems to have started this all wasn't to say "my songs are good, but I'm not popular so everyone gives me a bad rating". I realize that what I do isn't to a lot of people's taste, and that my desire to write music FAR outweighs my natural talent for doing so.

My problem with somesongs, and often times with Song Fight! is that it feels like the negative criticism is a symphony and the positive is a whisper and I find all that negativity throws water on any spark of creativity I have. I would just rather be on a site that breeds encouragement along with the criticism, and that was my answer to why I don't do somesongs anymore really.

As an example, here is a fairy typical FAWM review of one of my songs

I really like the lyrics on this one.
So, I'm giving a constructive critical comment because I LIKE it:

I don't like the last rhyme of "master plan". I like all the other lines, but for whatever reason, that one rubs me wrong.

How about something like "I'm drawing a line here in the sand".
I also just noticed the "man" "man" rhyme in that verse.
Ok. Sorry.

Please take call comments and suggestions with a grain of salt...

Love the chorus. The rhyme of the key words "Death to" and "Jethro" is great.
I especially like the first verse. Lots of good images and concrete ideas, but everyone can understand/relate.

Now here is a somesongs review from Tuur

Funeral dirge is a very good description. Maybe you were aiming for that; if so, you did a really good job! Doesn't exactly deserve the ultra low rating, but it's remarkable that even you cannot keep with the tempo and sing faster than the drums sometimes.

I get it, I'm a poor musician, but you can tell me that my timing is off without turning it into an insult. And this was the fifth review of my song. Quotes from each of the others

really slow and droney

Do Grandaddy know you're slowing their songs into funereal dirges?

Adding some syncopated beats would've made it a little more energetic toward the end, thus keeping my attention.

seriously boring

I do appreciate feedback, but I'd prefer if some of the feedback didn't make me want to delete the source files for my song and burn my guitar.

Edit 1 - Full disclosure: tviyh who called my song "droney" also said it was "nice" so I'm not saying there's no positive feedback.

Edit 2 - This is another thing I find frustrating about somesongs, even if people apparently like your song, they won't vote that they do. Take a look at this. All positive reviews with some great suggestions for improving the song. But if you are going to say "what's not to like?" about my song (I'm looking at you Tuur) then why are you voting [okay]? Are you voting on the song, or on the recording? Because I thought it was called somesongs not someproductions.

Edit 3 - BTW, over at FAWM, even Blue is nice to me!

Posted: **Mon Feb 18, 2008 11:24 am**

Kill Me Sarah wrote:it feels like the negative criticism is a symphony and the positive is a whisper

"I did right twice, and heard of it never; but did wrong once and heard it forever."

Kill Me Sarah wrote:I would just rather be on a site that breeds encouragement along with the criticism

I think what you seek is a website where the audience is solely your mom, or your girlfriend, or whatever. People seem to come around here (and around there) because they want to get the negativity. At least, many people I have heard from, including myself. Because without that, there exists little incentive to change and improve. Or rather, it would be difficult to realize what needs to change or improve.

You're right: it can often be discouraging, but it is what you are inviting by submitting your work to a public forum. Maybe you'd be better off including a disclaimer, "Please only tell me how great this is" or "If you don't like any aspect of the following, please spin it in such a way that it makes me feel better about myself and the world around me, thanks."

Kill Me Sarah wrote:Are you voting on the song, or on the recording? Because I thought it was called somesongs not someproductions.

The website asserts itself as (I'm paraphrasing from memory here) a place full of music with ratings based on how much you are likely to enjoy it. Each listener uses a unique set of criteria for judging, but the expectation is that ultimately it will average out to a scale of how much the average listener would like the song, comparatively. With this as my guide, my own ratings are given based on how "good" it sounds overall to me (aesthetically, in other words). So in the case of this particular listener, if you have written the greatest song ever in the history of the world, and the particular recording of the song renders it nearly inaudible or unlistenable, then it is not worty of a "good" rating, because I will not want to listen to it. Simple as that.

Posted: **Mon Feb 18, 2008 11:39 am**

Eric Y. wrote: I think what you seek is a website where the audience is solely your mom, or your girlfriend, or whatever.

No, as I've already asserted, I'm seeking a website like FAWM where emphasis is placed on encouraging creativity over de-constructing songs. Having someone tell you what they like about a song is just as, if not more, helpful that what they don't. Tell someone what you like about a song and they have something to build on. Tell someone what you hate about a song and all they can do is subtract, until there is no song left.

The purpose of this thread was "help save somesongs". somesongs is on the decline because it does not have regular participation. Online communities suffer from a lack of regular participation when you do not have a steady influx of new members, and somesongs is not particularly friendly to new members who are novice musicians (which, I would assume, is most new members).

Though Song Fight! can be pretty brutal on the ego too, I far prefer it over somesongs because there is far more emphasis given to reviewing songs and suggestions on improving them.

Posted: **Mon Feb 18, 2008 11:46 am**

The Song Fight Bulletin Board

Help Save Somesongs!