The Song Fight Bulletin Board

Generic wrote:Jim, do you still use that pirated copy of Antares that Mo gave everyone way back in 2004? I used that until last year, when a hard drive crash made me lose the installer for good.

Now I use the pitch corrector that came with Cubase 6. I'm sure with a little fine-tuning I could get it to sound halfway decent without coming across like a robot. That still requires at least a halfway-decent vocal take to begin with, though.

Have you tried the veri-audio? It's way beyond any sort of pitch correction plugin and although time consuming, can be imperceptible if used sensitively and with the character of entire track in mind.

RangerDenni wrote:

Generic wrote:Jim, do you still use that pirated copy of Antares that Mo gave everyone way back in 2004? I used that until last year, when a hard drive crash made me lose the installer for good.

Now I use the pitch corrector that came with Cubase 6. I'm sure with a little fine-tuning I could get it to sound halfway decent without coming across like a robot. That still requires at least a halfway-decent vocal take to begin with, though.

Have you tried the veri-audio? It's way beyond any sort of pitch correction plugin and although time consuming, can be imperceptible if used sensitively and with the character of entire track in mind.

Either sing with your flaws or deal with it. Not everyone is a singer. Tell that to Niel Young. Sing with a 'heart of gold" and soul. You'll get great.

....if your voice is holding you back, get a good singer. Not that "I'd ever do such a thing"...
...thank you DJ.

Either sing with your flaws or deal with it. Not everyone is a singer. Tell that to Niel Young. Sing with a 'heart of gold" and soul. You'll get great.

100% in agreement.

longfellowstreet wrote:

Either sing with your flaws or deal with it. Not everyone is a singer. Tell that to Niel Young. Sing with a 'heart of gold" and soul. You'll get great.

100% in agreement.

Don't confuse bad singing with a unique voice. And how is pitch correction any different from any other digital enhancement of one's sound? Or using sampled instruments? Seems to me we're in the business of making good sounds. Singling out one artificiality but permitting all those other ones seems suspect.

This feels like a conversation one might have in a sport.

It might be endearing to watch a clip before a huge olympic event about a winning athlete who strapped a pair of homemade skis on his feet and plunged with his father-coach down a lonely mountain his whole life. They hail from an obscure country only to come to the Big Time and smoke the competition ... proving not only that Steroids and Drug enhancements are bad - but that so are big gyms and fancy Sports Drinks.

This is not By-And-Large how things occur.

On the other hand, you can't auto-tune a lack of talent into a perfect track. That's where discretion comes in. And experience. But if you think that the pros are not using all the tools that are available to make the perfect tracks that you hear on the radio today, you're wrong.

I did some session work a little bit ago and I sang what I thought were perfect tracks. I sang them all over three-hundred times (only slight exaggeration). He did additional things to fix them. I bet you he tuned tracks that were already in tune too. Maybe. I have no idea. It was a job. When I heard the finished product it sounded like an angel singing and not really like me. But it would be good on XM Radio, I guess, or whatever they are doing now.

Occasionally I use veri audio because it is awesome and I don't think the other plug-ins are subtle enough to make my wacky voice not sound robotic. I did use the plug-ins once, when I decided to make wacky chorus effects on the last bits of my Carpenters cover. I also ran my vocal through a weird delay and a plug-in on some Leslie setting. It knocked it out of tune enough to make it distracting so I had to go back and make it more modular and blocky so that my effects would stack up nicely. I still think it was a bit blocky but it got the cavernous and lonely feeling I was going for. I feel it still needs tweaking.
These things should be applied like seasonings. And not like the way salt was used to apologize in Olden Times for Rotten meat.

ps. agreement on the "unique voice" comment. absolutely.

Billy's Little Trip wrote: ....if your voice is holding you back, get a good singer. Not that "I'd ever do such a thing"...
...thank you DJ.

you're great! you rock! you are the original and don't need a thing. I have to work at it like the rest of us, festivus. but you're welcome.

Jim--- while i was adjusting myself, did some Yankee ass hole Spam me?

Jim of Seattle wrote:And how is pitch correction any different from any other digital enhancement of one's sound? Or using sampled instruments?

You're right, there isn't much difference. And I'd never use artificial instruments in one of my songs. One of my pet peeves. Adding delays, reverbs and other studio tools and techniques to make a quiet listening environment production it's best, isn't the same thing as pitch correction or a midi horn section or making up for lack of skill "in my opinion". Using autotune to create a neat effect is a different story. Pop music is obviously a viable form of music, it's just not my thing. A painter makes every brush stroke and layer with his hand and imagination, whereas a photographer snaps a picture of a building with special filters and perfect lighting. They are both art forms. I didn't start writing music or playing guitar to get the popular vote, although money for nothing and chicks for free sounds quite appealing. But I do it because it is in me and it's my creative release, good or bad. Bottom line, to each his/her own on this subject.

BUT, I agree about a unique voice. I've been riding that excuse for myself my whole life, lol. I like to think I'm an acquired taste.

AND, I'm in the "business" (even though my "business" is in the red, lol) to make original music that is an extension of me and the band. I'm not the least bit interested in someone else's samples in a box. I wouldn't necessarily say I'm "in the business to make good music". But if I can make my creation sound good, that's a good goal. A much better goal than being in the business to make bad music. Bad is just SO not good.

Jim of Seattle wrote:And how is pitch correction any different from any other digital enhancement of one's sound? Or using sampled instruments?

I'm not that much into "digital enhancement". I try to use effects (EQ, reverb, ...) to make the mix better... you can't really mix properly without effects. They're a necessary evil of sorts. Using sampled instruments is another thing I'd prefer not to do, but it's currently my only option for doing certain things. My long-term goal is to be able to use real instruments for everything (except synth sounds... I don't really care whether those come from a chip or from a piece of software).
However, I don't think I want to auto-correct my pitch. To an extent that's a purely subjective constraint, but the practical side of it is that if I used pitch correction all the time, well, that's not really a good motivator for improving my intonation for reals, is it?

Yeah, I get that. I think the trick with pitch correction is knowing when an off note is ok and when it isn't. If you try to correct every single note that's not exactly on pitch, you're going to sound unnatural. I guess when I'm using it I ask myself "If I practiced this a while, would I eventually get it on my own?" and if the answer is Yes, then I think pitch correction is ok as a time and vocal cord saver. However if, for example, there's a bit with a fast run of pitches and I know that not matter how many times I try it I'll never get those pitches right on, I leave out pitch correction, because I know that I would be adjusting the sound to something I was not capable of achieving naturally.

Partly because of this conversation, (and partly due to time), my Gift of Music entry, which is very vocals-heavy, uses NO pitch correction whatsoever.

I have some vocal rules.
If I need to punch in or redo more than 5 places in a song length track, I do a whole performance again.
If I have to pitch correct more than 3 places because it's off in a 5-20c range, I need a redo or punch ins.
If I've fallen in love with my vibrato or something in a track in a specific place but the track is crap, just keep that one part, but go again.
I use it, but mostly as a wave editing tool. The veri-audio is sometimes good for getting rid of odd noises and freaky stuff that's not even part of the tuning, because you can trim segments without affecting pitch or tone or other aspects of performance, really. I'm not quite sure what it does but generally if it doesn't sound like "me" in my ears, out it goes - unless it's time to Party Rock. Then no one can say a damn thing about MY angular grooves

I can agree with that Jim. I understand time restraints of doing SF title fights. Sometimes we have to do things we are "ok" with, but would much rather do it differently given the time. A good example for me is that I don't mic my guitar cabs anymore. My guitar tone suffers for it. That's more of a living situation than a time restraint issue. But one good thing came out of it that was unexpected. I've learned to get the most out of it in the mix. Of course when I record for an album, or whatever, I'll take the time to get everything recorded exactly the way I want. Which includes redoing the vox until they are pitch perfect or I change them to work with my limitations, which is generally the latter, lol.

Generic wrote:Jim, do you still use that pirated copy of Antares that Mo gave everyone way back in 2004? I used that until last year, when a hard drive crash made me lose the installer for good.

Now I use the pitch corrector that came with Cubase 6. I'm sure with a little fine-tuning I could get it to sound halfway decent without coming across like a robot. That still requires at least a halfway-decent vocal take to begin with, though.

No, I actually bought Auto-tune a bunch of years ago. Like I mentioned, it's a great time-saver if the other option is to sing it till it's right. And I never perform live, so I don't really care if I may be keeping myself from singing better.

I think peoples' objections to it, which I mostly agree with, are that it makes a voice sound unnatural. But that doesn't mean it doesn't have its place.

Part 2 of my reviews. Sorry for the longer-than-usual gap between parts.


Andy Sucks Vs. Darrell & Company
Oy. This is a bad spoken-word introduction. ... Oy. This is just a bad song. At least you sound like you're having fun?

Berkeley Social Scene
You just launch right into it - an intro might have helped you out better. Nice lead vocals - Ken, right? The electric piano is doing some mildly discordant stuff in the chorus - it adds tension, but I'm not sure I wouldn't have preferred a more euphonious part. I do really like the reed instrument (harmonium? accordion? melodica?) that comes up in the second verse. This starts to get dull before it ends, I wonder if it's not just too slow - if the tempo were bumped up by 5-10 bpm, I think I'd have a much easier time getting into this.

Billy & the Psychotics
You guys have perfected the art of mixing Denise's voice against Chris' guitars. The soft-loud dynamic works 100% here, as there's a clear change in arrangement between the verse and the chorus, as well as in Denise's vocal timbre. Musically, I'm reminded throughout of a sped-up version of "Creep," but hey, there's nothing new under the sun. This is compelling, well-paced, well-performed, and perfectly-crafted. I'm voting for this, and if I were a betting man, I'd put money on it for the win.

Blue Movies
Muddy mix. Is that intentional? The guitars sound like they're underwater, and your vocal sounds like it was delivered through a phone. Lyrics are alright, but the instrumental interludes between verses could stand to be shorter - this song feels about :30 to :45 too long.

Caravan Ray
Nice drum loops in the beginning there. The fake horns dominate the mix pretty early on. I wonder if this song wouldn't have come out a lot more listenable if you'd replaced those horns with a real instrument and mixed it lower. The driving drums and chanting backup vocals offer plenty enough interesting sounds without the horns. As it is, the lead vocal gets buried under the busy-ness of the mix. And that's a real shame, since these lyrics are great. Okay, you get a vote anyway.

Dwald
This sounds like a broke 17-year-old with today's technology trying to emulate John Lennon at his druggiest in the 60s and 70s. It's a weird olio of samples - the drums are obviously from a machine, the piano sounds like it's two rooms over, the guitars are overwhelming, and the whole piece is heavy on noise, but light on ideas. I'd like to have heard lyrics other than "Don't you want to have a conversation?" Make the song about something, and it just might engage me enough to care.

Elephant Choir
This song was half-over before I realized I hadn't written anything about it yet. That's how you know you're doing it right. An acoustic guitar, two voices, and a tambourine - you really don't need anything more than that to record compelling music. You just might have the best lyrics of the week. Well-performed, cleanly-recorded. I'm a fan. You get a vote.

FauX
Yay, another Ben Folds fan! Your intro/interlude veers pretty close to "Zak & Sara," though the lyrics differentiate themselves. I would have liked to see you give the lyrics another couple of passes - there are a couple of clunker line. Your vocal is a little too loud throughout. It also lacks oomph. I think maybe you were trying to avoid making too much noise while you were singing, but the impression it gives off is that you're bored of your own song. That's problematic. Nonetheless, I like your performance and arrangement - it's clear you're going places. And I won't complain about having another pianist in the community, either. You get a vote for obvious potential.

hillbilly
"She was so fine, I had to... adjust myself." That line is so good I wonder if you didn't actually build the whole song around it. right around :55, an electric guitar sweeps in on the right channel, and it's mixed way too loud. Also, throughout, your vocals are too soft and possibly undertreated. It shouldn't be so difficult to hear what you're singing. Bring it up, maybe add a bit of reverb, and you'll be nearly there.

Infinity Point Buck
The intro is too long. Thirty seconds is too long to wait for the rapping to coming. The prominent sweepy synths overwhelm your voice in the mix - they probably need to be adjusted down. Thank you for keeping it short, but that's just even more reason to tighten up that intro - your song is 37.5% intro.

All in all, a pretty good fight. I'm voting for nearly a third of the songs. I'm impressed that, even with 22 entries, the fight clocks in at under an hour. A lot of us kept it really short and avoided wearing out our welcomes this week. Good habits to get into!

I better get started on this:


I will list songs in my order of preference
Graded according to their merit.

I usually give votes to Distinctions and High Distinctions


I will add to this post as I go

I will probably regrade as I go

HIGH DISTINCTION
Blue Movies
Easily the best of the fight. Well done. You will get comments about production. Whatever. This is good.


Paco de Stinko

Weirdly - your song did not go to my iPod - so when I wrote of "Blue Movies "Easily the best of the fight." - I hadn't heard this!

This is awsome! And you even mention Tatoo and O'Rorke. Best PDS song ever! Maybe.

I really like your vocals. As a deep voiced man myself - I know how hard that is to get really right



DISTINCTION
Smashy Claw
Hate the into. Too long
Hate the vocals. Too nasally.
Hate the subject matter. Spiderfucking man?!?! Why don't you just wear a Tshirt saying "I am a cock"?

But...when that ahhh comes in at 0:50 - I LOVE you!

THis is a really shit song with horrible nasally vocals.
But you sound so cool - I will keep my faith and hope for something better - there is promise here.


Billy & the Psychotics

Much better than last weeks. Den's vox are superb.
Scott Gesser
Not a lot to this. But damn it is good! Nice work. I like it.
CREDIT

Steve Durand
Excellent song. With vocals by Steve. But still a very good song. I'll have an italian ice with JB please
Seismic Toss
Where are you boys from? You sound like homies?
I appreciate the effort - not bad, backing music is pretty cool, - but alliteration can only go so fucking far (2 fs are plenty). Please write good intelligent rap (you are on the right track) - just don't make it sound like some something some spotty faced little git has written as their English homework.
FAUX:
Ok - the keyboard riff thing makes me want to punch you. Stop it. I can't pick your accent. Are you American or English? (both are the wrong answer BTW). Your singing is awful - but not terminal. At least you are singing something -and it is not bad - your lyrics are not terrible - you have promise - I am still not decided if I like you or not - don't worry, I say the same to my mum.
PASS
Ross Durand:
This sounds like Neil Young in one of his (frequent) "Boring Hippy" phases. There is no need to duplicate it.
Longfellow Street
What I like about you...you keep me warm at night....
This sound like something I would do - but I hope I would do it better
It sounds like you are trying to sound "garage" - but it is not very convincing. I like the male vox - but I don't like the female vox. Too much. Essentially - this just sounds fake. It is a pretty good song - but a pretty good song with all of the life sucked out of it.
Turners Union
This sound like Crosby Stills and Nash.......


no - I don't know anyone that wants to hear people that sound like fat boring hippies either.
No vote for you
BSS
This is a song I suppose.....just. Very dull.
Infinity Point Blank
This is so close to "Fail". You only get "Pass" because you sound fair dinkum about it. Bu this is really shit.
FAIL
Jim of Seattle
WTF!?!? I am not going to read some sheila's blog. I wouldn't read my own wife's blog. Why would I read yours? This is Songfight. You fail.
DWALD
Stop. Just stop.
Andy Sucks vs Darrell and Company:
You don't need an explanation do you?

Andy Sucks vs Darrell and Company This might have been funny to you while doing this, as it might be to most new to recording people. But lame, even in that context.


Berkeley Social Scene Hold lighters aloft for the chorus. I'm not sure that I enjoy that minor chord in that section or not. Should, but makes me...ponder. I'd like to hear some keyboard trilly arpeggios in the bridge, it's airy as is , but that might send it stratospheric.


Billy & The Psychotics Better'n better each time. I do hope that I can be at the live concert and rock these tunes out, with guest Spud for a kooky duet on Rattlesnake, of course. Bridge is fantastic. Maybe best Den vocals yet as well.


Blue Movies Diggin' the totally lo-fi-ness of this. More skanky than sleazy, nice dark edge. I guess that here, keeping it loose equals keeping it real. Good work. Be interested to hear the recording setup/process for this.


Caravan Ray Caravan Ray with an Indian head-dress on. Feathers, that is. The trademark backing vocals are great here and I like the tinny voice section, even if I can't understand it. Sleazy gospel. Could use a snip, time wise.


Dwald Maybe a mile underneath this, there is a melodic little tune trying to dig itself out of a heap of rubble. Everything sounds kind of broken or mildewed.


The Elephant Choir I can just hear a siren go by at the start of your tune. Lots of fucking, there. My! I like the doubled vocals here, and the trade off between the two on every other line. Dark, a brief, sunny bridge might work. Or not.


FauX This is catchy and fun, but I think it's missing something. Maybe the lead vocal reaching further or leaping to a higher octave. Something on the higher end besides the weeny synth. Good for a re-working.


hillbilly Building slowly, could drums be next? This sounds like it could be a true story, care to tell? Good layers if not consistent throughout the song. I always enjoy your pacing.


Infinity Point Buck Outer space disco, heard from outside the capsule. I think I'd like this better with singing instead of a rap type thing. The vocals dip away and get unintelligable.


Jan Krueger Whoa! Jan goes all 60's, man! Far out. I like it and am glad when your vocals layer, as always. Melody is easy going and works well. Just ask Neil Young. Missing is a fuzz box solo or electric sitar.


Jim of Seattle The piano intro makes me think of that dark tune on Pink Floyd the Wall, Is There Anybody Out There. It quickly evolves into much more. To continue with comparisons, sorry, it could also fit well on the Ice Storm movie soundtrack. Very nice, and thank you for reminding me of how primitive I am.


Jon Eric A bit rough and tumble, this goes to nice places. I think the length here is fine, although you could take it around the block again if you wanted to. As is, ends nice and sweet.


Longfellow Street This is good fun. The noisy guitars and drums are near stock, it's the very fun vocals that make this work best. The oi-ois and squeals are all great. I can't remember who's in this outfit, care to remind me? Dig it!


Paco del Stinko I did this in the midst of a voice robbing cold and as far as the sucky backing vocals go, I was surprised I could even pull them off as much as I did. I like the bass line best. Real shaker on top of my old 80's drum machine.


Ross Durand The melody is fine, but it's the Neil Young style guitar work that's tops here. Very nice. Good lovey feeling from the lyrics and dynamics. Another gem for your catalog. And...happy birthday!


Scott Gesser I was expecting a punk tune after the count in, but the extra guitar is more clobbering than that. Buries the vocals a bit. I like the feel and groove of this, a leaner version, with simple drums, like brushed snare and kick drum, might be fun. Edits are very obvious on headphones. Good tune in here, needs a little more elbow grease. Nah nah to you.


Seismic Toss Nice sample-age. The piano stuff makes me think of Digital Underground. I like the flow of the lyrics, mostly, but I have a hard time understanding them. Well constructed, it feels a little wandery.


Smashy Claw Weird guitar sound, like it's mic'd and through effects at the same time. Ah, there's the fullness I was expecting. I like how this opens up, vocally especially. Well played all around, I like the slushy beat. With all this talk of auto-tune and whatnot, did you do them real or fixed? Good arrangement.


Steve Durand Great to hear you swing, Steve, it's always refreshing. This is good and loose, not sloppy. I like the accents and chord changes best, the melody is nice and easy too.


Suckweasel Skanky T-Rex all the way. The woody guitar tone is nice and I'd enjoy playing with that sound as well. Mathew Sweet vocals work well and this is catchy due mostly to the chords. LIke the loose lead work. I think I'd like to jam with you, if you'd let me. Drummer's gotta tighten up, though.


Tuners Union Very nice. The production is off balance in areas, but doesn't matter. This is sweet and gentle, without being wimpy. Very well constructed and quietly technical. I'd pick this to win, if I were allowed to.

Paco Del Stinko wrote:and thank you for reminding me of how primitive I am.

Ha! I wish I could pull off 'primitive". I think I sound terrible when I try to. I probably have a compulsion to dress things up in hopes that no one can tell I'm faking it....

Thanks for the positive review though, I needed it.

Paco Del Stinko wrote: Paco del Stinko I did this in the midst of a voice robbing cold and as far as the sucky backing vocals go, I was surprised I could even pull them off as much as I did. I like the bass line best. Real shaker on top of my old 80's drum machine.

Yeah, that's like my dad. He can only sing when he's got a chest cold. He goes into this rich baritone that he can't access when healthy. Weird.

I called it. Congratulations to Billy & the Psychotics for another good clean win!

Attaboy! Attagirl! Go team, go!

Congrats you guys! Another well-deserved brass ring.

Woo Hoo! Thanks guys! Speech? Don't make me give a speech....DON'T make me give a speech. I don't have anything prepared. Ok, fine...

....*holds up award* I'd like to thank my mom for doin' all those sailors so I'd have lotsa dads. I'd like to thank Alanis Morissette for taking 6 days out of her busy scheduled to create everything and letting her son jeebus have rockin' cool hair and that awesome goatee. I'd like to thank America for inventing the interwebz. Thanks to the mighty Song Fight! and the alcoholic fight masters for giving me such a high post count and keeping this community the awesome music hot spot that it is. Our agent, Les Grossman for telling us that the universe is talking to us right now and that we just gotta listen. I'd like to thank DJ for breathing her awesome verbiage all over my lonely rock to make it into something important and loved. Thank you. *hands award to DJ and adjusts the mic down lower for her* .....