The Song Fight Bulletin Board

http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=706650

how do you feel about this? i've been thinking about this a little cos im in the middle of writing an album where, like, 4 songs use a I-iii-IV-V progression, or some variation of it. at first i didn't let it bother me, cos i didn't think it mattered, but...........

The problem is when people use the same progressions and do nothing to set their song apart from the others that use the same progression. It is impossible to come up with a brand new progression anymore; good new music comes from innovation in other areas (instrumentation, lyrics, etc).

That said, please never use I V vi IV.

There are a lot of songs that use the I, IV, V formula, past and present. I don't think it's necessarilly bad, just formulaic. When you find something that works, why not use it? Do you really need to reinvent the wheel or try to come up with a better mousetrap? Not really, but it never hurts to think outside of the box either.

In the end this page just reads like something the writer couldn't do on their own, come up with something new that's better and works.

If one aspect of your song sounds unoriginal, some other aspect has to make up for it. If you use a standard I-IV-V progression, for example, then your melody and lyrics have to be good enough that people aren't bothered by the cliche chords. I've used I-IV-V several times in Song Fight songs, and the progression hasn't been mentioned as a sticking point in reviews.

I would basically agree with the last two comments on that page.

discussing 1-4-5 arrangements is like opening a can of worms for me. anyone that knows me knows i like them. ok, i love them in fact. part of the reason i love them is because at least to me, alot of it is about "the hook". and it's much easier to create a hook around a 1-4-5 arrangement. for one thing, it's already a very familiar (i.e. overused) progression. to a musician that loves theory, it's probably boring. to the average listener that has no musical experience but does know what they like to listen to, it's an easy way to follow along with the song. and familiarity makes people happy. it allows them to sing along with a song. or hum it. but if a song has 42 chords and 3 bridges, you've probably lost me (and most others).

i completely agree with what john said. it's about making something different dynamically or instrumentally with the same arrangement. sounding like something else may not be a bad thing, but inevitably the song that gets talked about more is the one it's being compared to and not yours.

eric wrote:I don't like those accidentals. No, sir, not one bit. And if they're not, well then I don't like those notes. They're so forced. It's just screaming "I'm trying to be original!" When are people going to realize, it's not in making up new progressions, it's in altering the delivery.

john m wrote:Maybe it's the music that I listen to, but I don't think of those as original. Also, you'd rather listen to yet another I IV V song than a song that tries something new? "Altering the delivery" is a bit vague when discussing songwriting, in which chord progression is pretty vital.

I don't mean anything by this; I just had really brutal Deja Vu while reading this thread and I had to figure out why.

If you're gonna get deja vu in any thread, it makes sense that it would be in this one

Puce wrote:I don't mean anything by this; I just had really brutal Deja Vu while reading this thread and I had to figure out why.

That's because I was specifically thinking of that when I posted. I agreed at the time with part of his message, but I still think he's full of shit, because that progression is widely used. I -was- attempting to alter the delivery. If he doesn't think I did, that's his opinion and I respect it, but I've heard countless songs with that progression.

I ii iii IV V? That's the combination on my luggage!

I think it's still possible to do surprising things with common chord progressions, just with small tweaks. This is the progression of a song I'm working on:

I (with the 5th transposed down 1 octave)
V
Iaug
I

Not the most inspiring progression - 1 5 1 1 - but just by putting the pure tonic chord last instead of first, and adding a gratuitous augmentation, it sounds a lot more unexpected than you would think from reading the chord symbols.

Try sticking 7ths in odd places, or transposing the 3rd up or down an octave.

IMHO though, rootless chords always sound revolting.

The stupid (IMO) page linked to had no mention of melody and JB was the only one here to mention it. Get off the importance of chord progressions and think more holistically. It's not like hit songs ever have challenging progressions (OK, maybe they have a couple times...but very rarely). Sonics (arrangement, etc.), melody, lyrics, and often (gulp!) delivery...that makes hot music.

Yeah, actually I love good chords, but...

They're all important, of course. I think JB's got it basically right. Between music, lyrics, and chords, you're given one free pass, which you can use putting one of those three elements on auto-pilot.

I like to think of listening to a song like getting to know a person. The melody is their basic personality, the way they talk. The lyrics are what they actually have to say to me. Often, usually maybe, those go hand in hand. The harmonies are the non-verbal communication - how the person feels about what they're saying, the unspoken implications, the flip of the hand or turn of the head that speak volumes and that doesn't translate in online communication.

I just spent 3 days at the Seattle Folklife festival (Madi earned $160 busking for a total of three hours) and all I heard was I-IV and V, in various permutations. I actually thought a lot about this topic.

maybe try coming up with the chord progession last. first write a nice melody thats interesting, then come up with a bassline that works with it, and then the harmony is done for you. this can have its disadvantages too if you do it all time. i think the key is trying to be original in all aspects of the song at least a little bit, and writing songs different ways. If you always start with the chord progression you're bound to get bored and keep using the progressions. If you always start with whatever other part, that'll eventually get stale. mix it up however you have to. you could play one chord as a drone for a whole song and probably still come up with something original as long as you write a bitchin' melody.

Jim of Seattle wrote:I just spent 3 days at the Seattle Folklife festival (Madi earned $160 busking for a total of three hours) and all I heard was I-IV and V, in various permutations.

I know it's not very likely, but any recordings? That would be cool to hear ....

Interesting article by John Mayer (yeah that John Mayer) in the latest issue of Esquire where he writes a regular music column.

In it he breaks down the vi - IV - I - V progression and the hit songs that have used it, e. g. "Building a Mystery" by Sarah McGlauglin, "Complicated" by Avril Lavine. Have to work on a song with that progression.

I have a new found respect for Mr. Mayer (I'm sure he's glad). He's a quick wit with a good sense of humor, and a good writer as well. A lot more than you would expect from a pop sensation of the month. Refreshing to see a pop star that isn't a vacant sack that has his songs written for him or had a career lanched from a reality show.

sonofsupercar has used the same chord progression on every single song we've ever written:

D D D D D D D D D D D D D Db D D D D D D D D D D D D D Db

and we seem to do OK.

Basically everything that could ever be written has been written and you should all stop trying to write music.