The Song Fight Bulletin Board

Just got this email from EnoShop about a new vocal album from Brian Eno. I thought this quote was interesting:

Scheduled for a June 13th 2005 release, Another Day On Earth is a collection of new Eno songs, "the first one I've done like that for a very long time...twenty five years or so". Eno's song-writing, his typically concise analysis of the problems that most song-writers face, and the methods he employs to solve these problems reveal the unique nature of his approach to this particular art: "Song-writing is now actually the most difficult challenge in music. It's very easy to make music now but lyrics are really the last very hard problem in music. What I think lyrics have to do is engage a certain part of your brain in a sort of search activity so your brain wants to say 'here are some provocative clues as to what this song might be about'. They don't have to be explicit... in fact for me they certainly shouldn't be explicit".

-bill

Thanks Bill, that's a great quote.

but lyrics are really the last very hard problem in music. What I think lyrics have to do is engage a certain part of your brain in a sort of search activity so your brain wants to say 'here are some provocative clues as to what this song might be about'. They don't have to be explicit... in fact for me they certainly shouldn't be explicit".

Man, that resonates with me! With the exception of a few folk tunes, explicit narrative in a song turns me off. I much prefer lyrics that demand a little interpretation. Like, for the sake of example, Pink Floyd's Dogs.

Good stuff.

I really, really like explicit narrative in certain types of songs...

It may be used to express the darkest of feelings, the lowest of the low. It's tough to find a word that cuts its consonants as hard as an f-bomb. And has so many meanings! The explicit words illustrate madness and anger very heavily. Sure it's a challenge to create the same illustration of darkness without them. Somehow, I doubt that Brian Eno paints a picture of anger that can even come close to something like what Tool creates...

I guess you have to be subject, first-hand, to darker sides of human nature to be able to appreciate explitives in music and poetry. The world I come from is not pretty. Swears are part of my everyday language, so i think nothing of it!

But Des, I'd have been shocked to hear you say you appreciate swears in a song....

for what it's worth, most of my lyrics are explicit narrative.
i'd like to do more non, but my brain doesn't work that way very well.

i don't think eno's really done any songs about anger, doesn't seem like his shtick.
-bill

I can't even help but create explicit "alternative lyrics" to songs that are the opposite, just for fun...

Man, I love the two of you guys, and I love your point of view Des, it really is a challenge to create something that hits hard without using explicit language (and Floyd's "Animals" is one of my fav albums too). If the Deshead heavy-metal anger / madness symphony was ever written, I'd lose my lunch! Half a dozen f-words coming from Deshead would be absolutely maddening!

And Bill the darkness in your tracks is mind-boggling...We Are All Famous is like Marylin Manson meets Moby... now I'm going to go back and listen more to your lyrics...

boltoph wrote:I guess you have to be subject, first-hand, to darker sides of human nature to be able to appreciate explitives in music and poetry. The world I come from is not pretty. Swears are part of my everyday language, so i think nothing of it!

Uh, I think you've confused explicit with expletive. They're talking about how you tell a story, not what words you use.

HeuristicsInc wrote:

What I think lyrics have to do is engage a certain part of your brain in a sort of search activity so your brain wants to say 'here are some provocative clues as to what this song might be about'. They don't have to be explicit... in fact for me they certainly shouldn't be explicit".

Wow!!! I sure did. Sorry guys. I feel stupid, therefore I am.
Regardless, most of my lyrics are telling stories but I always get the response that no one can understand what the song's about...because I simply refuse to state it plain as day... (is that what "non-explicit" lyrics are? If so, then I feel like I'm the king of 'em...heh...actually, on second thought, I'm just too stupid to put together cohesive ideas...)
Actually Roymond I still owe you a remix of my "Die For Me" which may be the only song I've ever written that's easily understood...

Boy, I am out of it...

HeuristicsInc wrote:i'd like to do more non, but my brain doesn't work that way very well.

Have you ever played around with Eno's Oblique Strategy cards?

Or another trick that works for me sometimes: work with a nonsense simile. Like, say you're writing a song about a woman. Decide before you start that "woman are like car tires," and write your song about car tires instead.

Boltoph wrote:Sorry guys. I feel stupid

Actually, after I read your comment (and agreed that me swearing in a song, probably not gonna happen,) I did a double-take on my own interpretation of Eno's comment. It was an honest mistake.

Boltoph wrote:because I simply refuse to state it plain as day... (is that what "non-explicit" lyrics are?

Ya, exactly.

Some people can do explicit story-telling really well. The James Taylors and Gordon Lightfoots of the world. But in rock music, explicit narrative almost always sounds trite. Better, I think, to engage the listener a little, and make her think about what you're saying. (I cited Dogs as a great example, because you know it's about something, but the song demands repeated listens before you really figure it out.)

Boltoph wrote:actually, on second thought, I'm just too stupid to put together cohesive ideas...)

Na, I'll wager you've tried in the past, and just decided that straightforward story-telling doesn't sound good with the music you write.

boltoph wrote: And Bill the darkness in your tracks is mind-boggling...We Are All Famous is like Marylin Manson meets Moby... now I'm going to go back and listen more to your lyrics...

hey, thanks! check out this.
I guess, after all, that this one isn't really a narrative, per se, but my point should be pretty obvious

deshead wrote:

HeuristicsInc wrote:i'd like to do more non, but my brain doesn't work that way very well.

Have you ever played around with Eno's Oblique Strategy cards?

Or another trick that works for me sometimes: work with a nonsense simile. Like, say you're writing a song about a woman. Decide before you start that "woman are like car tires," and write your song about car tires instead.

I have used the cards... actually one of the windows-executable Obs. applications that you can find on the web, still, was coded by me many years ago... I wrote it back in 1994 or something. heh, i think it's on that site you linked to. actually, i also now have an actual card set, that i used on a future boy remix, so far. i should also try it, and explicitly try to apply each card draw to lyrics only. that would be a fun exercise.

nonsense simile is funny. car tires!
-bill

HeuristicsInc wrote:this.
I guess, after all, that this one isn't really a narrative, per se, but my point should be pretty obvious

Yeah, the point is well illustrated. I like these lyrics. I like songs written about human nature. Observing people in action and noticing common trends and saying the thing that people are "afraid" to say, like laughing at the drunk Uncle at a family party telling him he's drunk when everyone else was trying to be polite and not say anything...I think I do that sort of thing at work a little too much...

deshead wrote:I'll wager you've tried in the past, and just decided that straightforward story-telling doesn't sound good with the music you write.

Right on the money!! (I forgot about When It Snowed...)
I think for me, part of it is that I'm just not good at storytelling. I love analogies and lyrics with dual meaning though, though I might have to take up the challenge sometime, after a lesson from a couple of your tunes, like Fell Out of the Sky and Feet Timeless classics...Now, if only I could avoid getting caught up on one little part of a story that horrifies or delights me, I may be able to actually write a song that tells a legitimate tale...
I guess I agree with Mr. Eno. And I like to have to read the lyrics a few times to understand what's really going on.
I think it was Hoblit that also mentioned something once that'll always stick w/ me: it's nice when a song creates imagery. Like painting a picture or suggesting a certain "scene" or feeling.

boltoph wrote:Now, if only I could avoid getting caught up on one little part of a story that horrifies or delights me...

Oh contraire, homey. That's what the chorus is made for. And you get to sing/enjoy it again, and again, and again, heh.

Interesting turn this thread has taken, btw. Stories in songs is hard. Especially when you're cutting out as many words as you can to where there's naught left but the hint of a mood coming through. Scenes, moments, snapshots of imagery to get the listeners' imaginations going, yeah, that's what this poetry in motion lends itself to so well.

But full-on stories... damn. Tough stuff. And yet I keep trying. Starting with a moment, and then pulling back with the narrative camera, adding more detail with each line. And such.

Rabid Garfunkel wrote:

boltoph wrote:Now, if only I could avoid getting caught up on one little part of a story that horrifies or delights me...

Oh contraire, homey. That's what the chorus is made for. And you get to sing/enjoy it again, and again, and again, heh.

Excellent point! YEAH! Now I'm getting way fired up to write something!

Thanks, boltoph.

Anyway, deshead got me in the mood to listen to some Gordon Lightfoot, which I did, while making dinner with my wife... awesome. Thanks!
Going to see him in Aug.
-bill