Tuning Vocals in Post

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Pigfarmer Jr
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Re: Tuning Vocals in Post

Postby Pigfarmer Jr » Mon Nov 26, 2018 12:44 pm

Pigfarmer's introduction to modes:

Play the C Major scale. Play the exact same scale but start on the D and end an octave higher. Then again on the E etc., . Those are modes. Yes, it's less than an ideal practical explanation, but it might get you to internalize the idea. Each mode is just a different pattern of steps and half steps.

I think there was a Nur Ein (or possibly Spintunes) challenge where you had to use a mode... (or maybe just a weekly FAWM challenge, come to think of it?) *shrug*
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Re: Tuning Vocals in Post

Postby jb » Mon Nov 26, 2018 1:02 pm

In school we learned modes in terms of the solfeggio syllables. That's "do re mi fa sol la ti do". Each syllable has a relationship to the next. For example, between do and re is a whole step and between mi and fa is a half step. (ti and do are a half step apart).

If you start on middle C, you can sing through the modes like this:

Code: Select all

Ionian (major)
do re mi fa sol la ti do
C  D  E  F  G   A  B  C
(intervals: Whole - Whole - Half - Whole - Whole - Whole - Half)

Dorian
re mi fa sol la ti do
C  D  Eb F   G  A  Bb
(intervals: Whole - Half - Whole - Whole - Whole - Half - Whole)

Phrygian
mi fa sol la ti do re
C  Db Eb  F  G  Ab Bb
(intervals: Half - Whole - Whole - Whole - Half - Whole - Whole)

Lydian
fa sol la ti do re mi
C  D   E  F  Gb Ab Bb
(intervals: Whole - Whole - Whole - Half - Whole - Whole - Half)

Mixolydian
sol la ti do re mi fa
C   D  E  F  G  A  Bb
(intervals: Whole - Whole - Half - Whole - Whole - Half - Whole)

Aeolian (minor)
la ti do re mi fa sol
C  D  Eb F  G  Ab Bb
(intervals: Whole - Half - Whole - Whole - Half - Whole - Whole)

Locrian
ti do re mi fa sol la
C  Db Eb F  Gb Ab  Bb
(intervals: Half - Whole - Whole - Half - Whole - Whole - Whole)


I *think* I got those right...

Anyway, "Candle in the Wind" is in Mixolydian. Enjoy.

JB
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Re: Tuning Vocals in Post

Postby lichenthroat » Mon Nov 26, 2018 6:59 pm

Thanks, JB and Pigfarmer, for the explanations. It seems like you're saying slightly different things, though. I understand JB to mean "start on the same note (C) and move up using differing patterns (depending on what mode is chosen) of whole and half steps." I understand Pigfarmer to mean "start on different notes (depending on what mode is chosen) and move up using the usual pattern of whole and half steps between notes of different letters."

My previous understanding was consistent with Pigfarmer's explanation, so it was always confusing how the mode actually affected anything other than playing the scale itself; it seemed like writing a song, in which the notes don't necessarily proceed in order, wouldn't really be affected by the mode, since the scale (as represented by the key signature) still contains the same notes in every mode. I guess I'm not sure if you guys are really saying the same thing, and I'm confused, or if you genuinely disagree.
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Pigfarmer Jr
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Re: Tuning Vocals in Post

Postby Pigfarmer Jr » Mon Nov 26, 2018 7:53 pm

Naw, it's the same thing. So in my example we are changing keys. In JB's example you are staying in the same key. If you take the C major scale and start on D and end an octave higher you are playing the Dorian mode in the key of D. If you took that same pattern and started on C (JB's second example) you would be playing the Dorian mode in the key of C. Not sure if I'm explaining it very well, but simply put: in my example you are changing keys for each mode. In JB's you are staying in the same key (C). Clear as mud?
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Re: Tuning Vocals in Post

Postby Lunkhead » Mon Nov 26, 2018 8:28 pm

Can we plz stay on topic here? Maybe start a new thread to discuss modes?
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jast
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Re: Tuning Vocals in Post

Postby jast » Wed Nov 28, 2018 1:55 am

Update: I spent some more time with Melodyne on the same song I mentioned before. Turns out that the note detection isn't the problem so much, it's that Melodyne (and every other tool I know) doesn't always deal with sliding pitch changes in a productive way and can end up missing note transitions, or put them in the wrong place. Quite understandable, of course, given how much of that is artistic license and such.

If I do a first pass manually optimizing the note splits (including some within-note splits if the modulation is particularly chaotic), after that Melodyne does a pretty solid job overall even in its automatic mode, with me needing to finetune maybe 10% of the notes, plus doing manual changes to some of the notes' modulation, attack and pitch drift to tighten up some of the transitions but keeping it natural-sounding. I spent about two hours treating a song of mine and ended up with something that checks all the boxes for commercial standards without sounding processed at all (in the mix at least).

I'll try and upload a demo at some point.
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jast
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Re: Tuning Vocals in Post

Postby jast » Wed Nov 28, 2018 4:48 pm

So here's my original Song Fight submission: http://www.songfight.org/music/ocean_of ... er_ool.mp3
And here's the new one where I used Melodyne (and did some mix tuning in the past year or so): http://static.music-jk.net/attic/ool_melodyned.mp3
The untreated vocals: http://static.music-jk.net/attic/ool_leadvox_dry.mp3 (actual vocals start around 0:15 but fast forwarding doesn't work well in VLC for some reason)

The Melodyne version sounds pretty good for the most part. I originally wanted to reduce the vibrato on the last note a little, but Melodyne's pitch detection was a tiny bit off and so every attempt to reduce it actually just screwed it up, so I ended up keeping it untreated.
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Pigfarmer Jr
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Re: Tuning Vocals in Post

Postby Pigfarmer Jr » Wed Nov 28, 2018 7:59 pm

That does sound better and I didn't hear any obvious tuning spots. I remember this fight, too..
I released my first album on January 26th, 2018.
Free download (for a limited time) or purchase a CD:
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jast
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Re: Tuning Vocals in Post

Postby jast » Thu Nov 29, 2018 9:53 am

To be fair, in the two hours I spent on it I probably could have recorded better vocals, too. I have the luxury of being able to go back and forth between recording and engineering, unlike most "serious" productions.
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Re: Tuning Vocals in Post

Postby HeuristicsInc » Thu Nov 29, 2018 12:59 pm

Just dropping in here to say that I use Melodyne too, although I have to figure out how to download it on the new computer.
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