The Song Fight Bulletin Board

i had made reference to this question in the thread about practising drums but it seems to have gotten lost with the bickering. also i figure it's unrelated to practising so it deserves its own thread. here goes.

my new drumset (that i just got for christmas) came with a DVD from yamaha which is supposed to contain helpful information on set-up and tuning. i haven't watched it yet, but i'm sure this is a subject there are zillions of differing opinions about... if anybody wanted to share some of their favourite ideas, i'm sure it would be appreciated!

I was gonna answer this.. but it's mired in two things: lot's of detail, and personal opinion.


Still...here's my take:

Seating: In my opinion (just imagine that before everything here) a drummer should have as straight a back as possible, with the legs positioned over the pedals at about a 90 degree angle knee bend. The foot should be over the pedal, not too far forward or you lose power and will fatigue quicker, not too far under the leg (bending back) cause that's just awkward. If you sit too high (which some prefer) you loose the type of power and speed most pros got. Too low is not so bad, but it's more work to get that kick drum leg moving.
If you sit on the front half of the stool (not all the way back) you'll improve teh leverage of your legs.. they won't be as impeded by the stool.
I suggest getting the stool height where you want it and are comfortable, then, close your eyes, lean back and lift the legs up. Let them fall where they naturally want to. Try to position your pedals in these spots, as much as possible, because you're most likely to feel comfortable in this position...this works for most kids I teach, but it's no steadfast scenario.

Snare should be between the legs. The stick should meet the snare head as parallel as possible to facilitate teh best bounce. Again, some drummers like to have these radical angles on teh snare...some are quite good, like Greg Bissonette... seems like a hassle to me, I prefer a fairly flat snare.. with a slight angle. To determine height, try first dropping both arms to your sides, then bend up from the elbow ONLY and move the sticks over the head. The head should be about a cm or 2 beneath the tips of the sticks. Too high, and you'll hurt your hands on the rim, break sticks, and have to lift your shoulders too much. Too low, and you're wrists will be below a neutral position... think carpal tunnel. Plus, it's harder to get a good decent tone like that. As far as how close to you, this is a picky point, but keep in mind, a drum likes to be struck a cm above or below absolute middle, cause the vibrations from the head won't cancel each other out like it does when you hit dead center (called "choking the drum").

Ok, once you got the kick in place (oh, I'd suggest having the front of the kick slightly elevated, like 2 cms (just under an inch) for resonance and projection. Make sure your beater strikes the skin as parallel as possible...if too much edge of the beater catches the head, you'll dent it faster and get a thinner sound. ) Hell, as I'm on the kick... let's mention muffling. Some drummers use none. It sounds pretty good this way if you know how to tune. Some use pillows and stuff the shit out of the drum. I have never ever heard this sound good..but I'm sure it's possible. Some use fancy eq pads from drum stores..these sound great, and if you don't know what you're doing and have money, it's easy. I use a thin blanket, folded up so it takes up the bottom third of the shell, with only about 1 inch (2.4 cm) of "pile" to it, and I let the edge of the blanket touch both heads.
Hole in the skin: good for miking. Less boomy tone. Less rebound. Where to put it? I've tried above center, side, and middle. I like the middle cause it's easier to tune, and it rebounds more consistently.

Ok, so the snare, stool and kick are in position, and the hihats close. Raise the hats to a point where, with a comfortable bend in the elbow, and no lifting of the shoulder, you can play it with the tip of the stick, and the shoulder (the part below the tip, also called "the shank"). I like to have the hats about 1.5 inches apart, so they just DON'T touch. I can get a nice, crisp "chick" sound, but I don't have to work the pedal too much for nuance control.

As far as tom toms go, try to position them so that the angle allows for a natural, neutral posture in the wrist. Elbows should always comfortably be at the sides, NOT pinched in, but not winged out either. Cymbals should be tucked in for playibility, or appearance if you're a wanker.

Cymbal angle is important. The more angle, the less sustain but the more ping. Thus jazz drummers with the crazy angles. NEVER tighten the wingnuts all teh way unless your rich and like shitty cymbal tone. They should float on the stand... for effect, with old ones, I've clamped them down for that well admired garbage pail tone.

This is what I could think of right now... I'll go off about tuning later.. hope this helps.

HOW TO CUT A HOLE IN A BASS DRUM HEAD (that doesn' t have one):

Method One:
Get a small bread plate, a coffee tin, whatever, just make sure it's big enough (like six inches or so) to accomodate a mic and it's stand without touching. Most bass drums in packaged kits are about 22 inches in diameter by the way... Center the thing your using to help , coffee can, what ever. TRACE around it with an exacto blade/knife, dont' worry the first time about going through the skin, just score it, but SCORE IT NEATLY!
Second time, push through the head. Go slow. It's not worth screwing up. On the inside of the head, line the edge with duct tape (use a colour other than gray so it doesn't look too retarded..it's on teh inside...but it's what's on the inside that counts...right...) so that you're less likely to tear the head when putting mics in... or for those times the idiot front man kicks the mic even though you told him 12 times. In fact, duct tape the mic stand to the floor so he can't do that.

Method Two:

don't be so cheap. Buy one with a pre-cut hole , keep the head that doesn't have the hole for those times you want that Bonham sound.

there is a big debate about whether to center or offset the sound hole. i keep mine offset because several sound guys yelled at me about having it right in the middle, and then i had to kick them in the head while they were bent over, and then they ruined our sound all night.

Which do you find for tone? I mean, I'm using an Aquarian head right now, and I like it, but it's centered. The offset one sure has a ... fatter? sound...but I haven't thought about it in like four years...the last time I had to buy a front head!


Yeah... I've done the old "hit" the drum while some guy's head's up your kick drums ass... what the hell do they expect!! ( I need a "just kidding icon...)

once you have a hole in the head, i don't think it makes any difference where you put it as far as what it's done to the sound of the bass drum. the positioning is so it's easier to get a mic in the sweet-spot of the beater, which is off-center. if you put the mic right over the beater you get that weird 80's metal clicky bass drum sound.

those little $2 ring things are way useful for hole-cutting.

You make the drums look so diddy

I had a drum teacher tell me the yamaha drum dvd in question was really good for setups and tuning. That's all.

blue wrote:a picture of his bad self rocking out

Hey blue, do you play goofy?

blue wrote:several sound guys yelled at me about having it right in the middle, and then i had to kick them in the head while they were bent over

Clearly my client had no other recourse your honor. He was acting out of pure self preservation.

Leaf wrote:mired in two things: lot's of detail, and personal opinion.

i know, that's exactly why i asked. i figured i would hear different things from lots of different people, and since i really don't know where to even start, it would give me some ideas to try out and find what works for me.

thanks a bunch for your advice.

Leaf wrote:keep the head that doesn't have the hole for those times you want that Bonham sound.

i knew a guy once who had a holeless drumhead, but drilled a hole in the side of the drum and installed an XLR jack, and then mounted the mic on the inside. i never actually heard a recording of it after he finished, but i'd imagine it would sound all reverby and muddy. anybody ever have experience with this sort of thing?

deshead wrote:

blue wrote:a picture of his bad self rocking out

Hey blue, do you play goofy?

No, but he did Minnie once.



tee hee.


Man, I COULD finish some work.. or I could go off about tuning... hmm...choices....choices...

TUNING:

1. Removing the old head.
-place drum on floor, preferrably carpet.
- unscrew the top lug from you, a quarter to a half turn ONLY.
-unscrew the lug that is at the bottom, directly adjacent from the one you started.
-now, if you have an 8 lug drum, you want to follow this pattern (roughly):

________1

____5_______7

__3____________4

____5_______7

________2


...and if it's a ten lug drum, it's the same idea, criss-crossing the drum, a half turn or less at time, similar to installing or removing a car tire.
If you turn more than that, you can do bad things to lots of your gear, like the lugs themselves, the rim, the bearing edge of the drum, the skin, your hair colour may even be affected.
If you have a six lug snare drum, place it in a garbage can, or better yet, use it as a garbage can, it'll be more useful that way. Six lug snare drums are such a crime against humanity.

Ok, so remove the drum. Here's a neat trick I figured out.. see, it's always best to try and keep the same lug screw with the same lug, and to try and put the rim back on in the same place each time, cause wood drums slowly change shape with weather and age, and the rim will kinda adjust to the shape of the drum...if you keep moving the rim around, (so the theory goes) it won't fit right. I've had this happen to a chrome snare, and if the rim was on in the wrong spot, the head would slip out from the rim. SOOO!

Leave one lug bolt from the rim in a lug, and the rest can hang loosly in the rim.

Now, WIPE THE RIM!! Dust gathers here. This is your chance. Also, check the screws inside the drum that hold the lug. Inspect for cracks, damage, whatever. Fix it if it exists.

Ok, the funnest part. Put the new head on the drum (I'm not gonna go into head type at this time...) and seat it.

What you do is put it on, swivel it around a little so it "grabs" into the bearing edge of the drum (gently though) , put the rim back on whence it came from, and finger tighten each lug nut WITH THE SAME HAND (for consistency...or buy a fancy drum tuner motorized key...pussy) .
Now. Push on the drum head. Enjoy the crackling sound of glue. Enjoy people around you saying silly things like "is it broken"? The glue in the rim will crack. If you lean into the head and it seperates from the rim, take it back to the store, it's a piece of shit.

Ok, now re-finger tighten the lugs.

Now, turn , in the same order as before, each lug a quarter turn or less. Each time you have completed every lug, lightly tap the drum an inch from the rim by a lug. When it doesn't sound like paper, but has tone, you are ready to add about a quarter turn to each lug and stop.

Now push on the head again.

Now, comes actual tuning. (let's deal with 8 lug drums for simplicity).

Tap 1 inch from each lug, listen to the tone.
Now, find the lug that has the LOWEST pitch, and turn it up, no more than a quarter turn. Raise each lug, in the criss-cross pattern, until they all sound approximately the same as the highest pitch.

Push on the head again.

Check the lugs, and re-tune until each lug has the same pitch and pushing on the head doesn't affect it noticably.

Now, you want to raise the pitch up, a quarter turn or less at a time, until you reach ABOVE the pitch you are going for, then loosen each lug LESS than an 8th of a turn down to the pitch you want.

Ok, you're done step one.


WHAT PITCH DO YOU WANT?

This is the beautiful thing about drums... basically, you want what you think sounds good! Tom toms are usually spaced a fourth or fifth apart. Sometimes I try to make the snare and the kick an "octave" or too apart, but we're talking about atonal instruments here, so really, use your imagination.

Keep in mind: Higher pitched tom toms (like Stuart Copeland) wil cut through a mix better. Lower pitches are more supportive.


HEAD RELATIONSHIP:

Top head tighter (higher) than the bottom: More note definition, less sustain and power.

Top head looser (lower) than the bottom: Less note definition, more sustain and power.

Heads the same: Good luck on that one, but it produces a purer note.. apparently. I haven't tried it.


There is WAY WAY more to say about this stuff...but that's it for me, right now.

Leaf wrote:it's the same idea, criss-crossing the drum, a half turn or less at time

I'm impatient, so I use 2 drums keys, doing opposite lugs simultaneously.

Leaf wrote:until you reach ABOVE the pitch you are going for, then loosen each lug LESS than an 8th of a turn down to the pitch you want.

Any idea why this is done? The tuning back down, I mean. It's counter-intuitive to me, probably 'cause on a stringed instrument you always tune up to the note. Among other things, it ensures that all the slack is taken up .. Is that not an issue with drum heads?

When tuning a guitar, it's also better (according to my guitar buddy/teacher, and experience) to go slightly above the note, then ease back into it. The string (and the drum head) will pull away a bit when you go up to a pitch, so if you go above, and then ease back into it, it will hold it's pitch better... which seems counter to what you are saying...

But it works, I'm not too hot at explaining the science of it. I actually notice the technique the most when tuning my bass... not that this is related to drums, but between sets my bass will settle and cool down.. if I check the tuning, it's out...but if I rub the neck vigorously and the strings, then gently tug on each string, it's almost ALWAYS perfectly in tune again. Basses are awesome for that...

Leaf wrote:When tuning a guitar, it's also better (according to my guitar buddy/teacher, and experience) to go slightly above the note, then ease back into it.

The issue, as I understand it, is that guitar strings being wound, the ridges on the string can catch on the nut and bridge. If you tune down, the string can catch and leave some slack at the machine head. As soon as you pick the string, it'll slip and go out of tune by that amount. Tuning up avoids this.

A couple of references: http://www.jhc-software.com/tuning_a_guitar.htm ... And for harp: http://traditionalharps.com/HarpCareTuningMore.html

Leaf wrote:The string (and the drum head) will pull away a bit when you go up to a pitch, so if you go above, and then ease back into it, it will hold it's pitch better... which seems counter to what you are saying...

Well, again, my background is stringed instruments. What you say definitely does make sense for a drum skin. With drums, perfect pitch isn't so much of an issue (most people couldn't identify the difference less than an eighth of a turn makes.) It's far more important that the head is seated properly .. good rim contact, etc. And I can see how backing off on the tension would accomplish that.

Leaf wrote:but if I rub ... vigorously ... then gently tug

...well. That's weird, but I'll take your word for it. I have found that by going slightly above and back that it stays in tune, but I was told this for THE EXACT SAME REASON AS THE LINK YOU POSTED!! Opposite strategies for the same fuckin reason????

So..wtf? I'm wondering if I just heard it wrong... the yanking the string thing works though... so..uh...

AS far as the drum thing goes, I got it from a book called "Drum Tuning, a comphrensive guide" put out by Modern Drummer magazine.


This book is EXCELLENT.

...and if I've misquoted it or got something wrong...my apologies... but I did describe my process... when I actually bother to tune the drums that is!

Anyone use a drum tuner mechanism? I hear positive things about them.

Hi Tommy,
I'm afraid you have it backwards. The human ear can
hear a pitch settling upwards far better than
downwards. ( unless you have been playing Indian music
all your life ). Most slide guitar parts you'll notice
move upwards into tune. So if you are a little sharp,
tug your string so it goes a little flat, ( this also
snugs it tight around the machine heads and pulls it
through any catch points in the nut slot ) and then
gently snug it upwards into pitch. You should
definetely file some pencil led shavings into the nut
slot as well, especially if there is a creaking sound
when you tune.

To conclude the guitar comment I made, I'm way wrong. Not on the drum one though. I think I mixed up the two concepts. I shall immediately modify my guitar tuning concept on that one... I think I must have mixed up the idea of stretching a string out with tuning it... oh well.



DRUM HEADS:

I'll say only a few things.

Coated heads: for brush work.
Thin heads are what I use on the bottom, thicker on the top. I like the deeper, more powerful tone, and the give on tomtoms ; also I like the little "dipthong" that happens ...especially with hydraulic heads.

My personal choices are:

Snare : remo ambassador, coated on top, remo snare side clear on the bottom

Toms: I switch between emperors on the batter side or pinstripes.

Kick: evans model I can't remember, recently started using remo powerstrokes... I like. Aqaurian black with a centered hole on the other side.


When you use a heavy weighted head on the batter (striking) side, you can tune the two heads to a closer pitch , but the effect is as if the top was looser than the bottom.

Really, that drum tuning book is a freakin bible on this stuff though. I think I've exhausted my limited knowledge on this topic now.

deshead wrote:

blue wrote:a picture of his bad self rocking out

Hey blue, do you play goofy?

i am left handed and play drums left handed but guitar/bass right-handed.

i use 1-ply coated heads on everything, so all of that drum tuning is fine as long as i'm playing indoors in a room the same temperature as the one i tuned the drums in. drumheads go nuts over temp or humidity changes. if i'm playing outdoors, forget about it. the two-ply "rock" heads are probably a lot less sensitive.

if you're recording, tune them a little tight and then damp the crap out of the toms. i use big strips of duct tape over a pad of paper or whatever's laying around. you don't need to damp the toms so much if you have a sound engineer and a nice gate for each tom, but if you don't you'll get a lot of ring. at least, i do.

i also tune my bass drum completely slack when recording.

for my snare, i tune it until i can't turn the key any more. it makes it super bouncy and hard to play rolls on, but it sounds great and makes everyone's ears bleed.

the very best bass drum tuning you'll ever achieve when recording is done by buying an Audix D6 mic. everything you record with it sounds exactly the same - like a perfectly tuned bass drum.