The Song Fight Bulletin Board

Inspired by the variety of responses in the recent 'don't pray for me' thread. Post your perspectives regarding religion/spirituality/whatever. I thought this would work better if it wasn't a poll but instead a request for actual responses.

(Religion and I are not on good terms.)

I believed in God (as in, the xtian version of god) from about age 3 till maybe 5 or 6 years ago. It's such a comforting (and lazy) thing to just think that your fate is in someone else's hands. A turning point in my beliefs/non-beliefs was when I pondered this paradox:

If God is, as the bible says, all-knowing, all-powerful, and all-seeing, and sees the future as easily as the past, why then did he create the angel who would later on become Satan? He knew of its treachery before he even created it. And furthermore, why did he create human beings, knowing full well that we'd fall from grace and endure thousands of years of suffering until such a time as he sees fit to set things right? These are not things that a perfect, infallable, and 'loving' creator would do. They are more along the lines of insane, sadistic, and emotionally detached experiments for his amusement. Don't even get me started on 'hell'.

When my beliefs started crumbling, my instinctive reaction was to attribute this change of mind to some unseen, evil influence. "The devil is planting seeds of doubt in my head to turn me away from god!" etc. Then I remembered how I felt when I was about 5 or 6 years old, and found out there isn't really a Santa Claus. It was upsetting at first, it angered me a bit that I had been told a lie which I believed. Seems pretty silly now, 30 years later, really.

The whole concept of religion is to provide power to a certain few, feeding off the fears and guillability of many. It's all about control. Personally, I prefer clear, logical thinking and actions, not superstitous bullshit tainted by fears and laziness.

I believe in God. I'm with Sven in the "I prefer clear, logical thinking and actions, not superstitous bullshit tainted by fears and laziness" camp of thinking though.

I'm still working it all out though. I went to a Christian High School, which just fucked me up more than helped me. Like, on the one hand they tell you God is mysterious and we can't possibly truly understand God, and then in the next breath we are having the bible deciphered for us so we know exactally what God wants us to think.

Anyway, I believe in God, but that is about as far as it goes. I don't believe in a particular type of God, I just believe in the God I have figured out, and luckily, that God lets me do what the fuck I want.

I was raised Episocopalian and was involved in the church until I graduated from High School. I've always been fascinated by the Bible and the stories within, but as far as ever gleaning anything from them, that stopped about when I was a freshman in high school. Basically religion to me is spirituality mixed with politics and economics, which is very convoluted to me and ruins the whole point of it for me. That said, I believe there is God all around, in people and the world and stuff. I don't think it's some big glowing man making things move, I just think it's an ever-present something. And also today I decided I believe in magic and that some day a counter-example for gravity would come along.

Religion 1:
Perfect yourself.
Introspective.
Adonistic. (syn. for Chauvinistic?)
Enlightening.

Religion 2:
Perfect others.
Judgemental.
Chauvinistic. (syn. for Adonistic?)
Benevolent.

You can't well do 1 without 2; you can't well do 2 without 1. (A non-contradiction that throws some people off the tracks.)

You can't do 1 and 2 perfectly; you should strive to do them perfectly. (Another non-contradiction that takes some getting used to.)



This is a large part of the Truth-with-a-capital-T as I see it. All established religions seem to dance around this Truth to no end, some more accurately than others.

Here's some thoughts about some of the established religions:

Hinduism: Hinduism is more obviously just-a-story than other ones (thereby being better at avoiding fundamentalism). It's also astonishingly broad and deep, taken as a whole. I first seriously researched it for "Rocko-Vishy", and I found that it parallels, but perhaps more efficiently, many parables in other religions.

Christianity: <i>Jesus Christ Superstar</i> takes the parts I hate about Christianity (the overabundance of fundamentalism, the narcissistic guilt) and throws them out the window, the whole time keeping strict adherence the parts I love about it (love thy neighbor, the golden rule). Any person who thinks emself a real Christian should watch it and understand it.

Judaism: A more (not to be pejorative) primitive (but historically appropriate) predecessor to Christianity (in Hindu terms, Yahweh is Rama-(Krishna) while Jesus is Krishna-(Buddha))--see, that's what I love about Hinduism: so many philosophies in one). Jews seem to place less importance on spiritual tradition and more on familial tradition (it could be argued, probably correctly, that Jewish spiritual tradition coincides with familial tradition moreso than in any other established religion).

Islam: Like Christianity but less guilt-tripping and more vengeance. And less progress in keeping up with the times (socially), which seems like primarily the result of its predominance occurring in less developed countries.


All that said, I subcribe to no well known religion (yes, atheism counts), but I abhor the label "agnostic", because I'm not. I feel like I've got things really figured out, spiritually. Not perfectly, but much moreso than most, from what I can see.

Believing in God is a weird thing. It's hard to understand the whole concept, but it really comes down to faith ... it's kind of like air ... you can't see it, but when it's moving, you can feel it ... that's how you know it's there. When you feel God, it's really a thrill. However, I did have a lot of trouble with God when I went to a Christian school. Those places are pretty messed up ... I had a far better time in public school.

Sven wrote:Personally, I prefer clear, logical thinking and actions, not superstitous bullshit tainted by fears and laziness.

You are 100% correct. The universe, though infinitely complex, will one day be able to be explained purely objectively

However there are many who have faith whose lives are enriched by the knowledge that there is a greater purpose to life then just random genesis - that there is a God. They are also 100% correct.

Personally, I lie somewhere between these two - I am one of the agnostics that Mogosagatai abhors (I am 100% correct too - so is Mogosagatai).

(for more of Caravan Ray/Tex Beaumonts fascinating theology - feel free to listen to Caravan Ray's "Adonai" and "Waiting Takes Time". Those 2 songs do a pretty good job of summing up my feelings on the matter)

props to Doc Worm for the XFL reference.

As for me, I grew up in a Christian household but for reasons unknown to me (most likely trying to stay hip with the neighbors), my parents took a brief trip into Buddhism. That started me on my journey to really wondering about the nature of religion. I started studying creation myths and noticing similarities. I ended up deciding that having a faith that was completely based on Christianity was wrong for me. There are so many cultures in the world and who is to say that one is right especially when they all touch upon some of the same events in their texts. So I try to take what I can from wherever and put it to my own life. Plus, I can't disparage science.

So, my faith is a hodgepodge. I don't trust religious texts much. They've been passed down through the ages and have you ever played telephone? The messages change over as they are passed. Look at the bible- it was years before the Gutenberg bible. How had the text changed over time through passing from person to person and getting translated. Why did King James have some of the translators of the bible condemned as heretics? I don't like organized religion as it's too exclusive and doesn't allow for outside ideas.

I can believe there was a great flood. I can't believe in Karma and in a heaven. I can believe in the supernatural. I can believe in science. Life has too many complexities for me to settle on one religious view to give me all the answers. I'll never understand the nature of the world in my lifetime. And I'm okay with that.

My experience: when I was about 5 or 6, my mom gave me the "santa talk", except about God. She said, "There's no such thing." I spent the next 20 years mired in smug superiority when it came to dealing with people who believed anything other than what they could "prove" objectively.

Then one day, realizing I was essentially an empty person, I gave God a real, honest chance to enter my life, and everything changed. Over a period of a few years, I went through the thrilling (to borrow Jolly Roger's term) experience of feeling God in my life for the first time, and I've never looked back.

Having not gone to church or read more than a few snippets of the bible, I don't adhere to any specific religion. But I definitely have a dialogue with God, and it has most certainly changed my life in a very positive way. So, whatever "he" or "it" is, I firmly believe God can hear (and help) people if they ask for it.

Could it all be a self-imposed mind game? Sure, it could. But seeing as man can't even come close to explaining the most profound facets of the mind in purely biological terms, there is no evidence to counter the potentially divine nature of things like love, the innate awareness of good and evil, the sense of peace one can achieve through prayer or meditation, or the feelings of elation one experiences when making or listening to music.

I see a lot of my most cynical and downtrodden friends, and want to share the benefits I've felt since my "conversion", but truthfully, most of them would think I'm nuts. So I keep quiet about it. Erm, except anonymously on the internet.

it's impossible to tell for certain what's true. i've been pretty much an "agnostic" (like mogosagatai i hate the term) for the last year and a half or so. before that i was an off and on christian, perhaps casual. i believe in a god of some sort, and i'm trying to come to my own understanding of what this god is. i wasn't trying to understand that over the last year and a half, which is why i said "agnostic," i tried not caring for awhile, but i just ended up really depressed and hopeless. and i don't think it's a weakness that i'm looking for god, i really do believe in a higher power. the search for that truth creates a purpose for me to fulfill, which i didn't have over the last year and a half.

i was raised christian. my parents are both pretty religious, but they're not judgemental dicks about it. so i have strong roots in christianity. many of my good friends, the best people i've known, are christians. i'm just skeptical about the authority of the bible and the whole holier than thou aspect. i think jesus was a pretty kick-ass dude, and i'd follow him any day of the week.

i pretty much see all religions as equal and all religion should be strictly personal rather than congregational. once you organize religion you lose that unique connection to god that everyone should have on their own.

i get annoyed by judgemental, evangelistic christians who won't leave people alone about their faith. i figure if people want to know about your god, they'll ask. at the same time, the vocal atheists are just as annoying.

The more I read the Bible, the more blown away I am by the amazingly intricate thematic consistency of the Old and New Testaments together. The historical plight of Israel just serves to anchor the whole thing into our observable history.

The overarching message is that we are incomplete without God, and God has done some amazing things to allow us to complete ourselves in him, despite our rebellious natures.

Why do people use their faith as a motivation for terrible things (crusades, ecological disasters, George Bush, etc..)? Because people are filtering the message of God through their selfishness.

Religion, as a word, has so much baggage associated wtih it.

-=craig

fodroy wrote: i pretty much see all religions as equal and all religion should be strictly personal rather than congregational. once you organize religion you lose that unique connection to god that everyone should have on their own.

I don't know, there's definitely something good about being in a community for worship, discussion, learning, and mutual support. There's definitely no substitute for a personal spiritual connection, you can't just go to church and pretend that there's something there while being empty inside (ok, i guess you can but there's really no point), but I wouldn't dump the congregation aspect entirely.

Those who follow the "all religions ok", "I like Jesus", and "Community is good" (or, alternatively, "Community might be interesting") paths should check out Unitarianism.
-bill

Tex Beaumont wrote:Personally, I lie somewhere between these two - I am one of the agnostics that Mogosagatai abhors (I am 100% correct too - so is Mogosagatai).

I don't abhor <i>agnostics</i>; I abhor that label being applied to myself, simply because it isn't accurate.

And yeah, your "Adonai" does spell things out pretty well. So does your "Janjaweed", incidentally. How strange that a religious song and a sociopolitical song would have such similar messages.

Okay, well it's not <i>that</i> strange, since religion and sociopolitics are inextricable.

Personally, I consider religion to be the meme equivalent of smallpox. Those who are infected have my sympathy but I prefer that they stay the fuck away from me.

I enjoy talking to Jehova Witness' when I'm chopping wood with a maul.


Seriously, it's rather entertaining.


They usually get nervous, and then actually try to leave without leaving any booklets. It's an amazing technique.

True story. My dad came home from work one day and I said:


ME: Hey dad, the Jehova's Witnesses were here.

DAD: What did they want?

ME: They wanted to talk about what Jesus could do for you in your life.

DAD: Did you tell 'em?


EDIT: Holy crap, the one actual serious discussion on here and I've gone and derailed it. Sorry sorry. Back on track: I do not believe in a higher power. I've done embarassingly little investigation into it thus far, but I've been reading Vonnegut and Asimov lately, and this Humanism thing sounds like it might hit close to home.

HeuristicsInc wrote:

fodroy wrote: i pretty much see all religions as equal and all religion should be strictly personal rather than congregational. once you organize religion you lose that unique connection to god that everyone should have on their own.

I don't know, there's definitely something good about being in a community for worship, discussion, learning, and mutual support. There's definitely no substitute for a personal spiritual connection, you can't just go to church and pretend that there's something there while being empty inside (ok, i guess you can but there's really no point), but I wouldn't dump the congregation aspect entirely.

Those who follow the "all religions ok", "I like Jesus", and "Community is good" (or, alternatively, "Community might be interesting") paths should check out Unitarianism.
-bill

this is true. it's important to have that sense of community, of people who have the same goals and reasons for their beliefs, but i think the community should be kept small, so it doesn't get too big and powerful. it should also stay open to everything else instead of leaving out all of the other factors to account for.

and i almost brought up unitarianism but opted against it because i've never attended a unitarian service and don't know much about the church itself. all that i know about its beliefs is from reading emerson.

fodroy wrote: and i almost brought up unitarianism but opted against it because i've never attended a unitarian service and don't know much about the church itself. all that i know about its beliefs is from reading emerson.

You should check it out. Some good friends of mine are Unitarian... they took me to one of the services once (and a couple of weddings). Cool things - they'll never tell you what to believe in and they are the most welcoming people I can think of
-bill

I've been to a Unity church a few times (not the same as Unitarian) and it's a really loosey-goosey approach. Everyone is welcome, and the emphasis is very much on the personal relationship with God, rather than adhering to anyone's dogma or worshipping Christ per se. And we even sang Let It Be once! Good times.

obscurity wrote:Personally, I consider religion to be the meme equivalent of smallpox. Those who are infected have my sympathy but I prefer that they stay the fuck away from me.

Have you read Snowcrash? (Neal Stephenson)

You'd dig it!

M

Leaf wrote:I enjoy talking to Jehova Witness' when I'm chopping wood with a maul. Seriously, it's rather entertaining.

They usually get nervous, and then actually try to leave without leaving any booklets. It's an amazing technique.

Their world headquarters is a couple blocks from my home. It's an odd scene when they're going to and from. Sort of like carpenter ants. There's not much of a warm fuzzy feelings between them and the locals. After they rang my bell one day I think they regretted it and black listed our building.

During the black out two summers ago, their buildings (they are the biggest land owner in Brooklyn Heights) were all ablaze, showing off their off-the-grid generators. Apparently when the apocolypse comes, it will be well lit.