How I am handling a money dispute from a live show

GlennCase · Post by **GlennCase** » Sat Apr 29, 2006 4:31 pm

So, the Half Racks just played the best show that we have ever played last night. There should be audio in the very near future for y'all. We don't necessarily expect to get paid for our shows, but we DON'T expect to get screwed over either.

There were four bands, and the last band of the evening decided that they would keep ALL of the money that was made at the door. My information leads me to believe that this was primarily the decision of the lead guitarist. They also had personal conflicts in the band, and they broke up last night after the show.

As you will see, I am attempting to give them the benefit of the doubt, and to see the errors in judgment.

I am sure that similar conflicts have broken out COUNTLESS times as a result of shady bands all over the world. I am curious to see if any songfighters have dealt with similar ugliness, and how they handled it.

I sent the following message to every individual member of the band today. I am posting this for two main reasons:

1. To see if songfighters think that I am being reasonable
2. To cover my ass in case things get even MORE ugly, and other variations of the truth pop up.

Here's the infamous message:
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This frustrates me deeply to have to communicate this as a result of a bad business decision, but it needs to be done.

It is my understanding that the door money from the Blvd show was split soley between the members of [band name here] because:

1. The other bands were not present at the end of the night, and could not be located.
2. Because [band name here] has been screwed over by one of the other bands involved in the show.

I don't think that it makes an excuse for [band name here] (or any other band for that matter) to screw over the other bands. If we were in a role reversal, and the Half Racks had set up the show? Here's how it would have gone down:

Let's say the door was $400. This gets split EVENLY between the four BANDS. That's $100 per band. [band name here] was perfectly willing to split the EXPENSES of the Fat Tuesday's show that almost happened. Does it not work the same way for the profits? What is wrong with this picture, I ask you?

I actually wish every single member of [band name here] well. Best of luck with all of your future endeavors, it's a tragedy that the band had to break up. There is NO ill-intent here. There was just a poor business decision that was made, and it needs to be rectified.

My information tells me that every member of the band was given $80. This is a nice even number for 4 bands. In truth, every member of [band name here] should have gotten $20 and the other $60 that they recieved should have been evenly divided between the other three bands.

I can not speak for any other band, but a good number of my friends showed up for the Half Racks, and they paid at the door. We brought our part of the crowd for sure. Whether they stayed for any other bands was their decision, but we ABSOLUTELY contributed to the amount of money that was brought to that door.

The primary thing that upsets me is that I have to even take the time to think about this, and type this out. If the roles had been reversed, you would have gotten your fair share whether or not you were there at the end of the show. My integrity matters a great deal to me, and I don't give out my word lightly. To put it bluntly? We were screwed. ALL of the other bands were screwed, whether or not they have done the same to you in the past is irrelevant. It is not an excuse.

It boils down to this: I have this information, and I would not be a good band member if I did not communicate this to my fellow bandmates. I would not be a good part of the Spokane music community if I did not communicate it to the other bands, and to the Blvd. When the other bands, and my fellow bandmates find out about what has gone down? I am not sure that they will be quite as cool-headed about this whole thing.

Personally? I would be willing to write off the money, myself, BUT I could never work again with people who are willing to screw other bands over.

My recommendation?

1. Take $60 of the $80 that each of you earned.
2. Put it aside.
3. See to it that the $60 is EVENLY divided between the other 3 bands. That's $20 a piece.

I am willing to give this a week before I say a word to anyone outside of my band. You have a chance to do the right thing. You are welcome to keep your money, but I wanted to give you advance notice that I WILL talk to the Blvd, and I WILL talk to the other bands to let them know what has gone down, so they know to avoid getting burned again by the same people.

Make sense? Contact me with questions, should you have them.

Respectfully,

Glenn Case (The Half Racks)

Leaf · Post by **Leaf** » Sat Apr 29, 2006 6:15 pm

Kick there asses.

I have not experienced this particular scenario, however, I have had bar and pub owners try to screw us. I've been fortunate in that the ONE time someone succeeded in screwing my band over, the payback was much much sweeter!

Bottom line, you are doing the best you can, but honestly, just because some people are musicians doesn't mean they have integrity.

My suggestion for the future is obvious: Don't ever leave a show until the money side is delat with. I've had a guy owe my band $600 bucks, and he had asked us to pay past the pre-arranged end of the show for an extra $200. He didn't have the money. I drove him to his house, and he wrote me a check. It bounced. I made him write me another, cover the fees AND my ferry ticket. So, if you do have an arrangement, and you get screwed at the end BE FIRM. (Unless it's like a biker gang, then just ask for "barter".)

I also suggest you post their names with your story if they do not come through. It may be $80, but it should not be up to YOU Glenn, to suck up the cool and say music isn't about the money. Music isn't...but paying your bills and covering your expenses is.

Good luck. They sound like a bunch of fucking assholes no matter if they pay you or not. Just to do that? Write a song about them too... and play it at EVERY SHOW.

Each time they join a band, make sure the new members know what they are getting.

It'll be the lousiest $80 they ever earned from your band.

Sober · Post by **Sober** » Sat Apr 29, 2006 6:44 pm

I don't know, man. It seems that in the live music world, there's not a lot you can do in these situations. I'm out $3,000 - and I had a notarized agreement.

It happens.

jack · Post by **jack** » Sat Apr 29, 2006 7:24 pm

sure it happens but you shouldn't just shrug it off and say shit happens. might as well wear a sign on your back that says chump. if you don't get the money they owe you, make sure every other band in spokane knows about it.

post your story here with a warning label.

Reist · Post by **Reist** » Sat Apr 29, 2006 7:43 pm

One of my buddies got screwed over at a punk show he set up. People get greedy.

Caravan Ray · Post by **Caravan Ray** » Sat Apr 29, 2006 8:51 pm

I think you are definitely approaching this the right way

This sort of thing does happen a lot - the best you can really do is let your opinion be known and appeal to the good will of the other parties.

And rest assured - what goes around, comes around. Unless the band you were playing with was the Rolling Stones - a bad rep will probably end up costing them more than that few extra bucks they snaffled.

Henrietta · Post by **Henrietta** » Sun Apr 30, 2006 9:27 am

I'm sorry, man, that really sours a good show.

What doesn't make sense to me is how all $$ went to that band anyways. When Rio Grandiose plays a show with other bands, the venue/bar only gives us our share. They don't give The Joe Schmo Band all the loot and expect them to be honest... that sounds wacky & unprofessional.

I agree with Leaf, don't leave without getting paid. I'd be pretty darn mad at the venue, and I'd warn other bands to watch out for that place.

Post by **Lunkhead** » Sun Apr 30, 2006 10:50 am

I agree with Leaf and Henrietta. My limited experience, and what I've generally heard from other people, is that in most places you've got to stay till the end if you want to get paid at all, let alone fairly. I also agree with Henrietta that it's the management's responsibility to split the money, and it's really poor judgement on their part that they gave it all to the headliners. In most bars/clubs/etc., though, they probably would have just pocketed the other bands' money anyway, if they hadn't given it to the headliners. Unfortunately, the only party interested in making sure you get paid is you, so you need to be as involved in that process as possible. Anyway, like everybody's saying, be wary of the management at that place, and of the dude (or dudes) in the headlining band. People do post things on Craig's List naming people who've screwed them, but I'm not sure what that will get you except more ill will.

Justincombustion · Post by **Justincombustion** » Sun Apr 30, 2006 11:30 am

I was of the advice to gut the fat boy and wrap his intestines around his neck. But then Glenn pointed out that all that mess would ruin my clothes.

Leaf · Post by **Leaf** » Sun Apr 30, 2006 12:54 pm

Wear a rubber apron.

Märk · Post by **Märk** » Sun Apr 30, 2006 2:11 pm

Just find out where the guy lives. Then break windows, slash tires, etc. Cover your tracks, though, because that's all illegal.

Leaf · Post by **Leaf** » Mon May 01, 2006 10:32 am

Write a song about him, and play it at every show.

The shitty thing is; he's playing the poor me card right off the bat, and trying to leverage his father's alleged illness is the lowest kind of manipulation. To do this over $60 is completely ridiculous.

Anyone who says "I don't care who you tell" cares ALOT. People who don't care, don't mention it, because THEY DON'T CARE. I should know, I abuse teh "I don't care" line all the time.

Leaf · Post by **Leaf** » Mon May 01, 2006 10:33 am

uh..what happened? There was this excellent read I was replying too...and it disappeared...

GlennCase · Post by **GlennCase** » Mon May 01, 2006 12:00 pm

Leaf wrote:uh..what happened? There was this excellent read I was replying too...and it disappeared...

Heh. Oops. You saw it before I deleted it. I didn't think to edit out names when I first posted it. This is going to be a very long post, even the edited version will be.

I left out one VERY imporant detail in the my first message of this thread. The lead guitarist of the band that kept the money also acted as the promoter who set up the show. The money was given to him as the promoter, not as part of the last band. The venue trusted him to act in the best interest of the bands because he set up the show. I don't blame the venue in any way, as they are also rather pissed about what has gone down.

SO: The lead guitarist/promoter has responded to me. This is what he had to say. His parts are in quotes, and my responses to him are in bold.
--------------------------------------------
"How about before you call me and jump down my shit over $20 how about you take a look at where Im coming from."

Okay. Explain away.

"Imagine being a band for 4 fucking years and having to tell your best friends that you have to quit an hour after you just played a good show."

You HAD to quit? That makes it sound like you had no choice in the matter. Normally, quitting means that you made a choice.

"Imagine finding out that day that your dad may die in 2 weeks or never walk again because he is having some major surgery. I mean you dont even have any clue of half the shit I have been through this past week."

Actually, I know EXACTLY what you are going through, as I was faced a very similar situation with MY father back when I was 17. He almost died. Miraculously, he did not. My WIFE has almost died on at least two occasions in emergency room circumstances.

You are not the only person who has experienced pain or been faced with loss.

SO, While you have my condolences, and I do think that NO ONE should have to go through what you are facing: All of this has NOTHING to do with having the courtesy and ethics to look out for your fellow bands, especially when you have booked the show, and you have been TRUSTED to make sure that the other bands are compensated fairly.

This has NOTHING to do with the AMOUNT of money, either! This has EVERYTHING to do with ETHICS! I considered you a friend, and I trusted you to be fair to the other bands, as well as mine.

If you couldn't handle that responsibility due to personal issues, wouldn't it have made sense to delegate it somehow? Maybe the money could have been set aside until it could be distributed properly.

Truthfully, your two excuses for why you did not pay the other bands are lame.

1. You couldn't find us? Did we disappear from the area? Do we not have Myspace accounts? Phone numbers? e-mail?

2. So one band screwed you over? That gives you the right to screw over two other bands that did nothing more than keep their commitment to play the show that you booked?

Personally? If someone screwed my band over in a similar fashion? I'd STILL PAY EM! They earned that money.

Just because they made a poor judgement in the past does not give you the right to repeat that same mistake. It just makes you both thieves. Why not take the high road?

(I did get confirmation from the venue that the money was meant to be split between all four bands. THAT is first-hand information.)

As hard as it is that you are having these problems, it should have no bearing whatsoever on conducting business in an honest way. You're either screwing the other bands, or you're not. You took money that belonged to four bands, and you pocketed it for ONE band, and I think it's safe to say that you had NO intention of making it known. Otherwise, you wouldn't be referring to [the bass player] as my "little informant [the bass player]" later in this message. Call it what you will, but you appear as a freaking thief in this.

Yes, your ex-bandmates DID accept the funds, and I sent out the EXACT same message to each of them that I sent to you. I do not lay the entire responsibility at your doorstep. The band members who wish to do the right thing, will do so. I anticipate that all three of your ex-bandmates are good people, and they will work this out. They will also be getting a full copy of our communications here, as I believe they have the right to know exactly what has been said on both of our behalfs. I don't play the "half truths" game.

"Now normally I would have no problem with all this money crap but when Im sitting there with some cash in hand having to tell everyone that you are done that night. I had no choice but to give out the cash and be on my way.

You had no choice? I would like to understand how you had no choice. Were they demanding that you give them money RIGHT AWAY because you were quitting the band? Were they threatening you with bodily harm? Sounds a little dramatic. Sounds more like you felt bad about leaving your friends of so many years, and figured a little cash would soften the blow, and make you seem a little less of a bad guy.

Since you don't think you had a choice, Here's a little insight to what an honest person would have done in your situation (with or without personal difficulties going on):

1. Set the money aside.
2. Split the money into four even sums. One for each band.
3. Contact the bands, and see to it that they get their portion.

It's that easy.

Perhaps I have been given the wrong impression here, but according to the information that I was given: It was suggested that the money be set aside until a later time in an 'account', and that you had insisted that it needed to be split that night. Feel free to correct me if I have been misinformed, but it's really a moot point by now.

"Because In no way shape or form and I repeat NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM, Am I sticking around just to hand some guy that I dont even know or care about $20. If you wanna talk to someone IN [the band I used to be in] then go for it. Besides that You can leave me alone."

Well, that shows your true colors right there.

1. I HAVE contacted every individual member of the band that once was [the band you used to be in]. I will be in touch with each of them on this matter. THAT is the part that irritates me the most about this! I should not HAVE to be doing this! You created this whole mess by not just being a man, and taking care of business.

2. As was stated earlier, I considered you a friend. Apparently, I was wrong. I am a person that you "don't know or care about." That's fine. I am glad that we have now established this. I can live with that.

3. This isn't about MY band alone. For the record: It's $60 that EACH INDIVIDUAL MEMBER of [the band you used to be in] SHOULD NOT have right now. $20 for EACH of the THREE bands that have been screwed over by you. Personally? I don't even WANT any of the money for myself, PARTICULARLY now, but I can't speak for any other band member on that subject. I know that there are band members that would really benefit from every little bit of cash they can GET right now.

BUT, this isn't ABOUT just me, OR you and the things you are going through. It's bigger than that. There are 3 other bands involved who don't even realise what's going on. Yeah, I may seem like I am being harsh? But, I anticipate that my reaction might pale in comparison to some of the others involved in this. I could be wrong. I would LIKE to be wrong.

This was such an avoidable conversation, but it is NECESSARY, as I am SHOCKED that you don't seem to recognize the error of your choice. I have to say that I am honestly FLOORED by that.

None of us may have expected to get paid very much if at all, but I can safely say that none of us expected to get SCREWED either.

"I dont care who you tell and what you say because the truth is Im done. Im done with [the band I used to be in], Im done with the shit hole towns local music scene, and Im done with this little ugly scenario as you like to call it."

Fair enough. It's good that you are done, if this is the way you intended on treating fellow musicians in this town. Shit hole town or not, it's hard enough to make money doing original music as it is, without people who are being so selfish, and self-absorbed that they can't SEPERATE their personal life from their business in order to do the right thing.

"I mean you, your band, and anyone else no disrespect but this it. I wish you only the best for the future but If you wanna talk about this some more then talk to your little informant [the bass player]. Take care.

[the lead guitarist/promoter]"

Best of luck to you as well. Hopefully your father will fully recover. I do mean that.

As previously stated, I will be in touch with all of your ex-bandmates in order to get this resolved. Hopefully we can do that diplomatically, as I think none of us have time for a bunch of extra drama that is really unnecessary. A mistake was made, it can easily be rectified.

I have nothing but respect for my "little informant" right now, because at least he told me the TRUTH from beginning to end. Honesty and integrity are qualities that you can't put a price on.

I can understand why you'd be a little pissed. You almost got away with this. [the bass player] was the one who was honest enough to have it bother his conscience. He knew what should have happened, and what didn't happen.

You probably don't enjoy reading this, and I sure as hell don't enjoy typing it out, so I am done with this on a personal level. The band members owe ME nothing as far as I am concerned. I am representing three bands that may or may not feel the same way. What they do to pursue this further is ENTIRELY up to them, My obligation at the point is just to give them the facts of what has occured here. They have every right to know that. I GUARANTEE you that I would have gone to bat for YOUR band, had another band recieved the money at the end of the night.

Take care.

Sincerely,

Glenn (The Half Racks) 
-----------------------------------------------------------------
AND it is safe to say that he never saw my reply, as he deleted his Myspace account after sending his message to me. His ex-bandmates have all read his message and my response.

Okay. The GOOD news is that it looks like the other 3 members of the band are going to be reasonable. Here's what the drummer sent me this morning:
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hey man I got all your messages. Sorry I couldn't get back to you sooner, I left to go camping right after the show that night and I got back last night I have no problem only taking my share of the money and giving the rest to you guys in the other bands. I'll call [the rest of the band] and see whats up with them. I'm sorry this had to happen man, we can work this out. I still wanna work with you guys and all the bands in spokane and I still wanna be your friend outside of all the band stuff as well. I'm also sorry I couldn't have been there for your show man, I was working right up untill our show but I heard you guys were amazing. I'm gonna talk to [the bass player] later and see how we can get the money to you guys and all the other bands. Hey Glenn you have a good day man and I'll talk to you later.
[the drummer]
------------------------------------------------------------------
ROCK!

Glenn (DR FUNK)
http://glenncase.songhole.org

blue · Post by **blue** » Mon May 01, 2006 12:32 pm

i hate to be a negatory nelly here Glenn, but in my experience if you aren't there at the end of the night when the money gets handed out you get nada. i've never heard of a club holding money for someone.

maybe things are different in spokane..

GlennCase · Post by **GlennCase** » Mon May 01, 2006 12:58 pm

If nothing else, it may be another learning experience. A few of you have said that you normally need to stay until the end of the show if you expect to get paid. I DO think that an honest promoter SHOULD still look out for the bands that he contacted to play the show, even if that isn't what appears to be the norm. It is absolutely the way that I would conduct business as a promoter. I tend to think that anything less than that would be shady at best.

We'll see where this ends up. Thanks to everyone for their input on this.

ROCK!

Glenn (DR FUNK)

anti-m · Post by **anti-m** » Mon May 01, 2006 1:41 pm

Yeah, I have to say, Glenn, that although this guy sounds like a real weiner, it IS a little presumptuous to expect the venue / other band / promoter / whoever to do the work of tracking you down to pay you for a show that you left early. Iâ€™d let it go.

Generally, I would say that in ALL instances involving money â€“ whether it be gigs, freelance work, renting space with people, etc., your best bet is to agree on terms beforehand. Coming to terms beforehand doesnâ€™t always save you from getting screwedâ€¦(a few years back I wrote off a former employerâ€™s debt to me of $3,500-- contract notwithstanding. Ouchee!)â€¦but it can help in ambiguous situations. Perhaps this guy wouldnâ€™t have pocketed the money if youâ€™d talked to him about how to handle the money beforehand.

Sorry you had to go through this mess! At least it sounds like you guys had a good show!

Post by **Spud** » Mon May 01, 2006 1:51 pm

Agreed, blue, the venue was working with a promoter. They shouldn't have to deal with the individual bands.

I do not see, however, how there would have been any problem with the promoter guy holding the funds. I mean how hard would it be to get hold of the other bands? He got them to show up and play, didn't he? He must have their contact info.

Unfortunately, like Glenn, I am just basing this on what I would do in his shoes. Not usually a good assumption. When you assume that people will do the right thing, you often get burned. Lesson learned, eh Glenn?

GlennCase · Post by **GlennCase** » Mon May 01, 2006 2:04 pm

Spud wrote:When you assume that people will do the right thing, you often get burned. Lesson learned, eh Glenn?

Oh, indeed! If we have to learn this lesson, it could have been much, much worse.

That's really what this is about too: misplaced trust. A friend of ours is in the band (the bass player informant), and we expected his bandmate to be as honest as he is. Big mistake.

We actually didn't expect to get paid much (if anything), but we didn't expect to have one band pocket the money either. Maybe Songfight has given me a little TOO much trust in my fellow musicians. I honestly believe that if this were four songfight bands? This problem would not have happened. There is an honesty and integrity amongst the majority of songfighters that seems to be a rarity in the "real world" of musicians.

Most promoters may not be expected to track their bands down to pay them, but this is seriously making me think about booking all of our own shows, and being the person that DOES look out for all of his fellow bands.

If you play a show with me, and I am the one that set it up? We are ALL getting paid EVENLY. Period. You will get no more, and no less than my band gets.

(There may be some exceptions to this rule with bands that actually deserve "headliner" status, but that has to be openly communicated and agreed on BY ALL BANDS in advance.).

ROCK!

Glenn (DR FUNK)

Mostess · Post by **Mostess** » Mon May 01, 2006 2:30 pm

blue wrote:i hate to be a negatory nelly here Glenn, but in my experience if you aren't there at the end of the night when the money gets handed out you get nada. i've never heard of a club holding money for someone.

maybe things are different in spokane.. :P

This has been fascinating. I've never actually played a paid gig with more than one band. It would never occur to me that I might be forfeiting my pay by not staying until the venue hands the money to the last band, though I can kind of see how it might play out that way: at a non-paid gig our band was once reprimanded for leaving early and "taking" a chunk of the audience with us. They had a point, and I imagine the reprimand would have involved non-payment, had that been an option. Those guys were mad.

But the ex-guitarist of [band] isn't claiming standard practice, or gentlemen's agreement, or "you should have stayed" or whatever. He said that 1) band breakups and family illnesses are hard and 2) Glenn didn't understand his pain. If those are excuses, I've been living on the wrong planet.

Speaking of which, when I lived in California, people used to excuse all sorts of odd unethical behavior with "sorry man, I just flaked". It was stupid and obnoxious, though kind of funny. And it sure came in handy when someone did something ugly and later regretted it.

Post by jb » Mon May 01, 2006 2:44 pm

This is insane. No wonder so many clubs and bands go out of business.

The venue should collect contact information from the bands beforehand.
The venue should then take the money from the door and deposit it.
The venue should then cut each band a check, or dispense cash to them, whichever they request.
If the band can't be found, the venue should cut a check for each band and send it to their contact address via registered mail.

Not difficult. In fact, once you've got the process in place it's probably easier, and DEFINITELY MORE SECURE, than throwing a lot of wrinkly $5 bills at the last band of the night and saying "whatever dudes, later". Bands are employees. Treat them with respect, and they'll do a good job for you and come back again.

Before you start explaining "the way the world works" to me, let me assure you that I understand the motivations and reasons for everything that was done here. But what an exploitative environment! Geez! I want to take these people and shake them and yell "GROW UP" at them for twenty minutes.

GlennCase · Post by **GlennCase** » Mon May 01, 2006 2:48 pm

Mostess wrote:at a non-paid gig our band was once reprimanded for leaving early and "taking" a chunk of the audience with us. They had a point, and I imagine the reprimand would have involved non-payment, had that been an option. Those guys were mad.

I am SO glad that you mentioned this! It's another thing I have been thinking about recently. There WAS a good chunk of the audeience that left after seeing the Half Racks, because these were friends and family who came to see us.

I look at it like this. I think the door was $5. These people PAID their $5, and as far as I am concerned: how long they decide to stay at the show is THEIR CHOICE! I am not forcing them to stay or leave. I can ask them to stick around, in fact we did the polite thing during our set and asked people to stick around for the other bands.

Some of these people (audience and band members) work on Saturdays, or have other plans early the next morning. If you wanted our people to stick around for a while? Don't have us open the show. Personally? I'm really glad that we DID open the show, because I did have band members that had other obligations to meet the next morning. I actually love getting it out of the way, and being able to relax and enjoy the other bands.

I haven't mentioned this yet, but Tracy (Half Racks lead guitarist) and I actually did stay for every band. Neither one of us left the venue until the last band's set was over. Evidentally, we didn't stay long enough to get paid, but we were there for all of the live music that happened that night.

I actually hope that this whole thread will prove to be a lesson for any songfight band who is out playing live shows. Going through this whole thing has absolutely been a learning experience for me.

ROCK!

Glenn (DR FUNK)