The Song Fight Bulletin Board

If anyone heard my entry for Moon Light or read the reviews - it is apparent I have a bad hiss problem with my vocal tracks.

I use a cheap 'home karaoke-style' mike plugged straight into my laptop. When I record vox, unless I SHOUT VERY VERY LOUD, raising the vox to an audible level results in lots of background hiss.

I'm guessing that the first thing I need to improve this is a pre-amp for my microphone so I can get a decent recording level without picking up background noise. Is this assumption valid? If so, any suggestions for a cheap solution? (my wife seems to think that our money should go towards the mortgage and not my toys - huh! women - go figure...)

All suggestions welcome

Yep, you need a pre-amp, and then a new microphone. I know people hate Behringer's digital stuff, but this is a cheap tube pre-amp.

Don't use them together. Use them separately to create greater dynamic in your song. One for the first verse, the other for the "sensitive, introspective" verse, then back to the first with added keyboards to beaf it up.

Caravan Ray wrote:If anyone heard my entry for Moon Light or read the reviews - it is apparent I have a bad hiss problem with my vocal tracks.

I use a cheap 'home karaoke-style' mike plugged straight into my laptop. When I record vox, unless I SHOUT VERY VERY LOUD, raising the vox to an audible level results in lots of background hiss.

I'm guessing that the first thing I need to improve this is a pre-amp for my microphone so I can get a decent recording level without picking up background noise. Is this assumption valid? If so, any suggestions for a cheap solution? (my wife seems to think that our money should go towards the mortgage and not my toys - huh! women - go figure...)

All suggestions welcome

Actually, I think your first problem is probably the laptop. What kind is it, and what sound hardware does it have?

Caravan Ray wrote:If anyone heard my entry for Moon Light or read the reviews - it is apparent I have a bad hiss problem with my vocal tracks.

I'm guessing that the first thing I need to improve this is a pre-amp for my microphone so I can get a decent recording level without picking up background noise. If so, any suggestions for a cheap solution?
All suggestions welcome

Watch ebay for either an ART Tube MP or a M-Audio Audio Buddy preamp. I bought an ART tube MP for under $40 shippped the other day. Just keep bidding on them until you get one.

Ken

I split these posts off into a new thread. In order to make the Help thread as useful as possible, especially for people doing searches, let's really try to keep threads focused on a particular subject.

When you can't think of a specific subject for your threads, I'll try to make one as the discussion goes on.

jb

Generic wrote:

Caravan Ray wrote:If anyone heard my entry for Moon Light or read the reviews - it is apparent I have a bad hiss problem with my vocal tracks.

I use a cheap 'home karaoke-style' mike plugged straight into my laptop. When I record vox, unless I SHOUT VERY VERY LOUD, raising the vox to an audible level results in lots of background hiss.

I'm guessing that the first thing I need to improve this is a pre-amp for my microphone so I can get a decent recording level without picking up background noise. Is this assumption valid? If so, any suggestions for a cheap solution? (my wife seems to think that our money should go towards the mortgage and not my toys - huh! women - go figure...)

All suggestions welcome

Actually, I think your first problem is probably the laptop. What kind is it, and what sound hardware does it have?

You might have something there. Its a Toshiba - my work computer. No idea what its specs are. I only started using it recently because its much much faster than my home computer. Now I think back though - I was getting better results on my home computer (although my hard drive is so small I have to delete every WAV file after I finish a song. I can only work on one song at a time)

I've got another laptop lying around at home - I'll see if that goes any better

<b>Ray:</b> Having personally recorded lots of stuff on a Toshiba laptop, yours probably has a Realtek onboard audio chip. Laptops don't seem to be as well grounded as PCs. I find that when I recorded 16-bit audio on my laptop the bottom 2-4 bits would fill up with static. That sucks, especially if you are compressing the vocals afterwards. If you are recording at 6-db under line volume the (perceptible, not actual) signal to noise ratio from your Soundcard alone will double, and at 12-db under it will quadruple. When I used a dynamic going straight into my laptop I was recording at around 30 db below line level, so my recordings were on-par with a noisy 8-bit recording. If you can use a preamp, tube or not, to get your vocals up to line level it will reduce the noise caused by your A/D converters drastically, but it will still be a problem.

Maybe what you need is a USB pre-amp. It's relatively cheap and you'll never worry about your soundcard or line level ever again.

Puce wrote:<b>Ray:</b> Having personally recorded lots of stuff on a Toshiba laptop, yours probably has a Realtek onboard audio chip. Laptops don't seem to be as well grounded as PCs. I find that when I recorded 16-bit audio on my laptop the bottom 2-4 bits would fill up with static. That sucks, especially if you are compressing the vocals afterwards. If you are recording at 6-db under line volume the (perceptible, not actual) signal to noise ratio from your Soundcard alone will double, and at 12-db under it will quadruple. When I used a dynamic going straight into my laptop I was recording at around 30 db below line level, so my recordings were on-par with a noisy 8-bit recording. If you can use a preamp, tube or not, to get your vocals up to line level it will reduce the noise caused by your A/D converters drastically, but it will still be a problem.

Maybe what you need is a USB pre-amp. It's relatively cheap and you'll never worry about your soundcard or line level ever again.

I think what Puce just said is that the level of sound you're recording needs to be greater than the background hiss of your equipment, or else when you amplify what you recorded, you're gonna hear a whole lot of hiss-- since the noise was just as loud as your singing, to the equpiment's ears.

Am I close, puce?

jb wrote:Am I close, puce?

Woah, I just noticed that my last post reads like a Japanese manual. What I meant was: Laptops have crap soundcards. Get a preamp.

Puce wrote: I find that when I recorded 16-bit audio on my laptop the bottom 2-4 bits would fill up with static.

How did you find this out?

c hack wrote:

Puce wrote: I find that when I recorded 16-bit audio on my laptop the bottom 2-4 bits would fill up with static.

How did you find this out?

I recorded a 16-bit wav in Cool Edit Pro with no mic connected and the meters would read around -80dB, with some clicks and pops in there on top of that. A signal at 0 db uses all the bits of a 16-bit word; a signal at -6 dB only uses 15 of the bits; a signal at -12dbB uses 14, and so on. If my noise floor is -80 dB then the bottom 2.8 or so bits are just hiss. This reduces your effective bitrate to 13 bits per sample, instead of 16. If you are also recording at a level of -30dB (like I was, and as I suspect Caravan Ray is) then you lose 5 <i>more</i> bits of information for every sample, reducing you to 8-bit quality.

Math is awesome!

Puce wrote:A signal at 0 db uses all the bits of a 16-bit word; a signal at -6 dB only uses 15 of the bits; a signal at -12dbB uses 14, and so on.

What's a word?

So you're saying the louder the signal is (without clipping), the more fidelity there is?

1. Pre-amp.
2. maximize your use of compression and gating.(actually, expanders I think are better in this cirumstance....)
3. get a shure 58 or better, a cheap condenser
4. convince your wife that all this stuff has a higher re-sell value as the equipment ages...
5. buy her something first... that is more expensive than your "toy"

c hack wrote: What's a word?

A set of bits, in this case, 16 bits making up e.g. an integer number.

So you're saying the louder the signal is (without clipping), the more fidelity there is?

Yes, think of it as a number. The louder the signal in a particular sample, the higher the number will be - the samples in the given sound will vary in their "levels" up and down as the sound plays, as the frequencies go up and down and such. Does that make sense? So if your recording is very quiet, the numbers only go up to, say, 32. 32 can be represented in less bits than a louder sample, say, 1024. So more bits - more fidelity.
All this kinda off the top of my head, I hope I didn't say anything incorrect, this is what I remember from my old days of "signal processing."
-bill

Puce wrote:

jb wrote:Am I close, puce?

Woah, I just noticed that my last post reads like a Japanese manual. What I meant was: Laptops have crap soundcards. Get a preamp.

Puce, thanks for your help, I think you've diagnosed correctly - but let me get this right:

Are you saying that a USB preamp will let me get a decent result on my laptop even with it's crap soundcard?

If so - it sounds like an excellent solution because I like the speed and portability of the laptop.

I've never used one, but a USB pre should convert the audio signal to digital itself, completely bypassing your soundcard's limitations (both Signal-to-Noise ratio and latency issues). I think. That way the only noise you will get will be from the room or the mic itself, which you should be able to gate pretty transparently. Make sure the USB pre has +48V Phantom power so you can make the essential upgrade to a condenser mic. Looking forward to hearing the results.

take ken's advice. look for an inexpensive ART or Presonus tube preamp. they retail new for about $100, so ken's deal is pretty good but not unheard of. they are inexpensive and they will give you the signal boost you're looking for. i use a behringer B1 large diaphragm condenser ($99 on musician's friend) and i think it works swell. if you can avoid a dynamic mic for vox, you probably should (at least for recording purposes).

but you can get a whole new usb sound device for not much more, and that will improve things beyond just the volume of your vocals.

-craig

jack shite wrote:take ken's advice. i use a behringer B1 large diaphragm condenser ($99 on musician's friend) and i think it works swell. if you can avoid a dynamic mic for vox, you probably should (at least for recording purposes).

yes. take my advice.

I use the Studio Projects B-1, which sells for $89. i don't know how it compares to Jack's B-1, but i suspect it is better, and if nothing else, it is $10 cheaper. Also, I must object to the suggestion that a dynamic shouldn't be used to record vocals. Many an excellent vocal have been recorded with a dynamic mic. Red Hot Chili Peppers comes to mind for some reason. Also, Elvis.

An all in one USB device would be very good. It would act as your soundcard. I think the M-Audio Omni USB is a great deal out right now. $200 new. It give you 2 preamps, four total ins, and monitoring in a small package. You would spend way more than that for the separate components.

Be well,
Ken

I already had a good general-purpose preamp, so I just bought one of these a few weeks after I got my laptop, and thus restored the status quo. It was cheaper at the time, though.

Thanks everybody - the help is much appreciated.

Now time for me to start writing my list for Father Christmas....