A Challenge (Latin American/US relationships)

[Plushpolly]

So I'm sitting here bored, researching a whole bunch of different things, and I came up with the idea for this challenge. As far as my research on the subject goes, I've come to the conclusion that the United States has systematically used terror tactics against other countries (especially those of Latin America) when even the smallest hint of political reform has taken place there. My challenge to you, is to do the research on this subject, and without mudslinging or name calling, tell me why I should solute the flag of a country that would support, fund, and participate in that shit. I hope some people actually get involved in this. . . it should be interesting.

[WeaselSlayer]

I don't know, because all the research I've done has told me not to. But I love America, and it's that love that makes me so angry at the less-than-humans into whose hands we've fallen. But I love the America that gave me Garrison Keillor and Tom Petty and the REAL punk movement (Stooges and Ramones and the Velvet Underground) and Seattle and Austin and Tucson and Mark Twain and Frank's Red Hot and the Utah wilderness and Jackass and the Minutemen. And it is for that America that I would be willing to die, that I would be willing to take on a white house full of thieves and hypocrites.

[obscurity]

My challenge to you, is to do the research on this subject

My challenge to you is to do your own damned research, you lazy bastard.

[Plushpolly]

Weasel: I appreciate the reply first of all. I came up with this challenge mainly because I wanted people to do the research and see what is going on. I threw in all of the flag stuff because it makes people angry and angry is good but I wanted to focus that anger towards people educating themselves. Obviously, obscurity proved that I have way too much faith in the general public. Anyway, I agree with you almost completely on what you've said (by the way, awesome band list). I believe that it is our responsibility as Americans to make America the absolute best it can be and the only way to do that is to look past what government sponsored schools shove down your throat and do your own research. I guess I can't make anyone do it though. . .

Obscurity: I have done the research that's why this is a debate, the other person needs to do it too. . .

[fodroy]

tell me why I should solute the flag of a country...

Well, no one ever said you had to salute the flag. It's not a law or anything. And yeah, do your own damn research. And then post it here so we're all on the same page.

[mc3p0]

Nationalism is moronic. Venezuela was the original target for this faked "war on terrorism" according to 'Confessions of an Economic Hitman'.

[Plushpolly]

Fodroy: I meant for soluting the flag to be a figure of speech. I guess I need to learn how to chose my words carefully here. . . Everyone's so eager to jump down each other's throats. lol

Alright. . . since there seems to be some confusion over the fact that i've done the research myself (lol) i'll post my collection thus far. Keep in mind that these are independant notes that i've collected from various sources. I also would like you all to remember that I invite anyone to look at these notes, find inconsistencies, and prove me wrong. This does NOT include grammar errors or spelling mistakes. As I said, these are my own personal notes and I simply do not have time to proof read every word. Remember, this exercise calls for no mudslinging. . . . The whole purpose of this is for us to learn from each other.

Nicaragua:

-Nicaragua was of no concern to the US government until leader Somoza's tyranical rule was challenged by the Sandinistas in the late '70s.
-The US first tried to institute what was called, "Somocismo" (Somoza-ism without Somoza). That is the whole corrupt system intact but with someone else on top.
-That didn't work so President Carter tried to maintain Somoza's National Guard as a base for US power.
-By June of '79, the National Guard was carrying out huge atrocities in the war against the Sandinistas.
-A few days later Somoza flew off with what was left of the Nicaraguan National Treasury and the Guard collapsed.
-The Carter Administration flew guard commanders out of the country in planes marked with red crosses (a war crime) and began to reconstitute the Guard on Nicaraguas borders.
-They also used Argentina as a proxy. At that time Argentina was under the rule of neo Nazi generals. They helped to re-establish the guard. They were soon to be named "Contras" or "freedom fighters"
-Reagan used them to launch a large scale terrorist war against Nicaragua, combined with economic warfare. We also intimidated other countries so they wouldn't send aid.
-Incredibly, dispite all that the US did the Nicaragua, it was not able to create a viable military force there.
-Why did the US go to such lengths in Nicaragua? Because it was "Exceptional in then strength of the governments comittment to improve the conditions of the people.."
-In '83 the Inter American Developement Bank concluded that "Nicaragua has made noteworthy progress in the social sector, which is laying the basis for long term socio-economic developement."
-The success of the Sandinistas terrified US planners so the US launched a 3 fold attack on Nicaragua.
-First we exerted extreme pressure to compel the World Bank and Inter-American Developement Bank to terminate all projects and assistence to Nicaragua.
-Second we launched a Contra war along with an illegal economic war to terminate the threat of a good example.
-The US also refused to send aid when natural disasters such as the Managua earthquake of '72 and Hurricane Joan in '88. We also pressured our allies not to send aid.
-We wanted the poeple to starve so we could accuse the Sandinistas of mis-management.
-Third we used diplomatic fakery to crush Nicaragua.
-For Nicaragua, the peace plan of August 1987 was a good deal. Journalist Tony Avirgan wrote,"They would move the schedualed National elections forward a few months and allow international observation in exchange for having the Contras demobilized and the war brought to and end."
-The Nicaraguans held up their end of the deal but no one else paid attention to it. They never had any intentions of doing so in the first place. Infact they more than trippled CIA supply flights to the Contras.
-Even so, the Sandinistas still got 40% of the vote.

El Salvador:

-For years muder, torture, and repression took place in El Salvador supported by our government. However, by the late 70s America had grown concerned about 2 things.
A. Somoza, the dictator of Nicaragua was losing control and with it America stood to lose a major base for it's exercise of force in the region.
-In El Salvador there was a rise in "popular organizations" or peasant associations, cooperatives, unions, church based bible study groups, etc. This raised the threat of democracy.
-In feb. 1980, Oscar Romero (prime minister of El Salvador) sent a letter to President Carter in which he begged him not to send aid to the Junta that ran the country. He said such aid would serve only to "sharpen injustice and repression against people's organizations."
- A few weeks later he was assassinated while saying a mass.
-The Neo Nazi Roberto d'Aubuisson is generally assumed to be responsible for this. He was the leader of the ARENA party which now governs El Salvador. The President had to take a blood oath of loyalty to him.
-Thousands of peasants took part in a commemorative mass 10 yrs later along with many foreign bishps but the US was absent. There was scarcely a mention of any of this in our media. The media of the country that funded Romero's assassins.
- March 7, 1980, 2 weeks before the assassination, a state of seige had been instituted in El Salvador and the war against the population began with force. (With support and involvement from the US.)
-Unspeakable events occured which the US mainstream media didn't think was worth reporting.
-Students, priests, peasants, and anyone suspected of working for the interests of the people were the main victims.
-In October 1980 the new Archbishop condemned the injust war waged by security forces.
- 2 months later they were hailed by the favorite use moderate Jose Napolean Duarte as he was appointed civilian President of the Junta or government council.
-The role of the "moderate" Duarte was to provide a fig leaf for the military rulers and ensure them a continuing flow of US funding after the armed forces had raped and murdered 4 church women from the US.
-The media downplayed the story but the incoming Reagan administration took it much further having a show trial a few years later.
-Many of these atrocities including the executions of 6 Jesuit priests, their cook, and her daughter were comitted by the atlactl battalion, an elite unit created, trained, and equipped by the US government.
-Formed in 1981, a US trainer described its soldiers as "particularly ferocious."
-In the fledgling democracy of El Salvador, teenagers as young as 13 were scooped up in the slums and indoctrined with rituals adopted from the Nazi SS and forced to become soldiers.
-The violence increased when the church began to organize peasant associations and self help groups in an attempt to organize the poor.


I figured that for the sake of time, I'd just start with Nicaragua and El Salvador. . . I'll leave it up to you whether you want to expand this . . . I've got plenty : )[/i]

[WeaselSlayer]

Nationalism is moronic.

No one's talking nationalism. I'm talking betterment by way of looking to those who have come out of a culture I find rich and satisfying.

[roymond]

Fodroy: I meant for soluting the flag to be a figure of speech. I guess I need to learn how to chose my words carefully here. . .

Well, I'm intrigue by your excercise, but I don't read those emails people spread around without any source references to look at, so I don't need a big random bullet list to ramble through with no attempt at qualifying anything. If you want to say "I think the US fucked up Nicaragua" then fine. But at least point to somewhere people can learn more. A variety of sources is most helpful.

Not to jump down your throat or anything...and I don't disagree with you or anything.

[Caravan Ray]

Nationalism is moronic.

True - I don't think any flags need to be saluted.

(outside of a sporting arena of course. Sport is a game, and a healthy way for us to exercise our inherent need for tribalism. Beyond that - I find any 'flag saluting' a bit disturbing)

[WeaselSlayer]

I have no idea what you're talking about.

[a bebop a rebop]

Uh-oh, Godwin's Law strikes again.

[Plushpolly]

mc: Thank you first of all for the link. . . Once again that's the entire purpose of this, to learn collectively. I will deffinitely check out that book. Why do you think nationalism is moronic? As far as my research on Venezuela goes, I was under the impression that Venezuela (as compared to other Latin American countries) put up a reletively small fight against America's conquest. . . I was not aware that it was the original target of the whole terrorism deal. I'm excited to read about it.


Roymond: Earlier on in this exercise people gave me shit (no offense) about doing my own research so I posted my notes (taken from different sources and collected over time) on here. I didn't know how else to prove to everyone that I had infact done the research. I don't think it's my responsibility to point out places where you can go and find the info yourself. . . that's half the purpose of doing this; I state my standpoint, we debate them. . . I'm trying to learn here as well ya know?

Caravan: Although I do have issues with soluting the flag, that really was taken out of context. . .

Weasel: What if Hitler had used his abilities for good rather than evil?

[WeaselSlayer]

I'd make a lot less Nazi jokes. Which would blow.

[Plushpolly]

lol