The Song Fight Bulletin Board

Similar questions have been asked in the past but I haven't found anything that addresses this specifically. I'm working on a song now and am double-tracking the vocals. I'm wondering if there are standards for panning vocals and other instruments. I ask because at the moment I have the two vocal tracks panned 70/30. In headphones, it sounds okay, but sitting in the backseat of a car listening to it the other day, the vocals seemed way too up front. Is this an issue with the panning or the volume levels?

Secondly, what is the best way to mix vocals so that they are audible but not drowning out everything else.

And finally, as far as levels and panning, are there guidelines to go by w/ the remaining instruments? Should lead guitar be panned or centered? How about rhythm guitar and drums, bass, etc.

Is this an issue with the panning or the volume levels?

Both.

Panning: A signal panned hard-left or -right will be 6db quieter than a signal panned center.

Volume: Through headphones, your ears are fed left and right independent signals. Through speakers, each ear gets sound from both the left and right channels. How your brain sums the left and right, in each case, is different.

There's a simple rule about mixing panned instruments: Never do it in headphones. Yes, you can judge stereo field positioning more accurately in the cans, but you can't judge overall level because of the way your brain adds the two channels together.


For the rest of the stuff, I'm not sure if you're looking for specific answers, or if you're just trying to spur conversation. If it's the former, the only answer is "there are no rights and wrongs. Do what sounds good.

deshead wrote:There's a simple rule about mixing panned instruments: Never do it in headphones.

Whoa. OK, erm, let's say someone (hypothetically) mixes in headphones. Would occasionally listening through basic speakers to get the panned levels right solve this issue?

kill_me_sarah wrote:And finally, as far as levels and panning, are there guidelines to go by w/ the remaining instruments?

Nowadays it seems that bass, lead vocals, kick, and snare are always panned center. Backup vocals are usually panned a little left/right and rhythm guitar is often multi-tracked and panned hard left and right.

Also, in terms of drum kits, I like to pan things logically. That is, based on the layout of the kit from the perspective of being in front of someone playing it. (So, the hi hat would be panned a bit right and the ride would be panned a bit left.)

But, yeah, what sounds right generally is right.

catch wrote: Also, in terms of drum kits, I like to pan things logically. That is, based on the layout of the kit from the perspective of being in front of someone playing it. (So, the hi hat would be panned a bit right and the ride would be panned a bit left.)

My drums, for the time being, are of the Fruity Loop variety. That being so, should I record each virtual piece of the kit to separate tracks and mix/pan them each differently?

Thank you both for the suggestions so far, these are really helpful and I'm already looking forward to getting home and doing some experimentin'

You can use the Fruity Mixer in FL to pan individual instruments separately (no need to worry about "tracks", persay).

a bebop a rebop wrote:You can use the Fruity Mixer in FL to pan individual instruments separately (no need to worry about "tracks", persay).

Oh yeah, duh. Thanks

omg I just realized how to spell per se

deshead wrote:There's a simple rule about mixing panned instruments: Never do it in headphones.

Bullshit. I always mix with headphones, and while people complain about many aspects of my songs, the mixing tends to get more compliments than complaints.

obscurity wrote:

deshead wrote:There's a simple rule about mixing panned instruments: Never do it in headphones.

Bullshit. I always mix with headphones, and while people complain about many aspects of my songs, the mixing tends to get more compliments than complaints.

No, it's not bullshit. It's basic psycho-acoustics.

People may not complain about your mixes, but do the mixes always sound the way you intended through car speakers or computer speakers? Or how about in mono?

catch wrote: let's say someone (hypothetically) mixes in headphones. Would occasionally listening through basic speakers to get the panned levels right solve this issue?

It's probably worth noting that I said "mixing panned instruments." Headphones generally only lead to problems when you're using them to set the levels of panned instruments in relation to eachother. If your mixes are more up-the-milddle, you'll probably be fine mixing just in headphones.

That said, occasionally listening through basic speakers, indeed through any other listening device, is always a good idea. The more places you check your mix, the more information you have about how the mix translates. (Not everyone listens through headphones.)

catch wrote: Nowadays it seems that bass, lead vocals, kick, and snare are always panned center.

When I have multitracked vocals, or one set of vox with effects and one without I have often been panning them 30% or so to each side... does this sound appropriate? It may be my imagination but it seemed clearer to do this.
-bill

HeuristicsInc wrote:

catch wrote: Nowadays it seems that bass, lead vocals, kick, and snare are always panned center.

When I have multitracked vocals, or one set of vox with effects and one without I have often been panning them 30% or so to each side... does this sound appropriate? It may be my imagination but it seemed clearer to do this.
-bill

I was listening to a Nemoy track earlier (he generally gets complimented on his double-tracked vox) and if I'm not mistaken it sounds like he has on vocal panned center and one panned hard, which follows what Catch was saying.

I just want to pop in in and mention that the respected (well, respected by me anyway) Larry Crane wrote an article for Tape Op extolling the virtues of mixing in MONO and screwing stereo altogether.

His argument was, essentially, that although you loose stereo interest in mono, you gain control over the other elements of your mix. Given that one often has no idea if his/her audience is going to be listening on headphones, speakers, crappy speakers in two different rooms, etc, it seems like it might be an idea worth considering.

--Em

deshead wrote:

obscurity wrote:

deshead wrote:There's a simple rule about mixing panned instruments: Never do it in headphones.

Bullshit. I always mix with headphones, and while people complain about many aspects of my songs, the mixing tends to get more compliments than complaints.

No, it's not bullshit. It's basic psycho-acoustics.

Yes, it's fucking bullshit. I don't care what theory you care to quote, practice has shown me, time and again, that I mix better with 'phones than monitors - to such an extent that I actually gave away the NS10Ms that I used to mix with. I could have saved myself a lot of time, money and hassle if I'd ignored people who quote this as some kind of golden fucking rule, which is why I now call it as the bullshit it is when I see it.

deshead wrote:It's probably worth noting that I said "mixing panned instruments."

Yeah, that's what I was asking about. But I already check my mixes in a large variety of places, so it should be cool.

For most of the songs that I've submitted here, prior to Mega-Fight, I set all the track levels with them panned straight up, then panned to where desired and levels adjusted. Seems to work and I'll probably do it for "All Tan." There's something to that mono business - I have Beach Boys "Pet Sounds" with the stereo mix right after the mono, and most of the mono mix, I feel, is superior.

obscurity wrote:

deshead wrote:

obscurity wrote: Bullshit. I always mix with headphones, and while people complain about many aspects of my songs, the mixing tends to get more compliments than complaints.

No, it's not bullshit. It's basic psycho-acoustics.

Yes, it's fucking bullshit. I don't care what theory you care to quote, practice has shown me, time and again, that I mix better with 'phones than monitors - to such an extent that I actually gave away the NS10Ms that I used to mix with. I could have saved myself a lot of time, money and hassle if I'd ignored people who quote this as some kind of golden fucking rule, which is why I now call it as the bullshit it is when I see it.

Don't know about the panning issue, but I always use headphones (just out of necessity) - and I often get the bass sounds badly stuffed up (either way too loud or not at all). Stuff sounds fine in my headphones - but bad on other players. I always like to burn to CD and check the final version on my car stereo if I get a chance before submission. Headphones seem to be bad for bass sound mixing

Caravan Ray wrote:Don't know about the panning issue, but I always use headphones (just out of necessity) - and I often get the bass sounds badly stuffed up (either way too loud or not at all). Stuff sounds fine in my headphones - but bad on other players. I always like to burn to CD and check the final version on my car stereo if I get a chance before submission. Headphones seem to be bad for bass sound mixing

Well then you definitely shouldn't mix with headphones if you can avoid it. I mean, I'm not saying mixing with 'phones is the One True Way or anything, I'm saying that there isn't One True Way.

obscurity wrote:

deshead wrote:

obscurity wrote: Bullshit. I always mix with headphones, and while people complain about many aspects of my songs, the mixing tends to get more compliments than complaints.

No, it's not bullshit. It's basic psycho-acoustics.

Yes, it's fucking bullshit.

Actually, first of all, "obscurity", your posts aren't help or how to. Unless we're talking about "how to be an asshole on a messageboard". But most of us don't need help with that...I sure don't.

Somebody should moderate this "obscurity" asshole's whiny, bitchy, "People tell me [a load of crap] about my songs" troll post.

And, it's not bullshit; you see, when you have headphones on, the panned stuff appears way louder to you than it really is. And center mixed stuff appears quieter.

Actually I had the experience of hearing my mixes in a car stereo recently and thinking, gee, all the panned stuff is quieter than I'm used to, and the vocals and drums, so loud.

Then i listened to the new Tool and Pearl Jam albums. Couldn't deal w/ em on headphones, guitars panned and way to loud. Can't hear vocals enough. Popped em in the car stereo and wham, sure enough, I could now hear vocals and the guitars were a nice volume in comparison. Whether or not you like those bands or not, really isn' an issue. You'll find the same thing with Beatles albums.

It's not bullshit, actually it's science. I believe that this song's for you, obscurity. Oh wait...it might just take some intelligence to understand it. Never mind.

anti-m wrote:although you loose stereo interest in mono, you gain control over the other elements of your mix. Given that one often has no idea if his/her audience is going to be listening on headphones, speakers, crappy speakers in two different rooms, etc, it seems like it might be an idea worth considering.

Ya, no question.

Not to mention, a lot of listening environments are effectively mono. Think: Dance club, bedside radio, TV, supermarket ... Even a stereo system heard from another room is a mono sound source.

obscurity wrote:I don't care what theory you care to quote, practice has shown me, time and again, that I mix better with 'phones than monitors

Check out some of your tracks in mono, dude. They're all kick drum and vocals.

Caravan Ray wrote:Headphones seem to be bad for bass sound mixing

A lot of headphones hype the low and high end. That said, it's possible to learn your headphones' frequency response, and adapt to it. The same guideline applies as with speakers: Do lots of A/B comparisons, while you're mixing, of songs that you know sound good.

deshead wrote:Panning: A signal panned hard-left or -right will be 6db quieter than a signal panned center.

3db, actually. Not that anyone cares, really.

And Boltoph, you need to chill out. There are more important things to get stressed out about. Like bears. But seriously, if you want people to take you seriously, lay off the ad hominems. All Obs is trying to say is that ultimately panning is a matter of taste, and in his case his preference is to use headphones.

Puce wrote:

deshead wrote:Panning: A signal panned hard-left or -right will be 6db quieter than a signal panned center.

3db, actually. Not that anyone cares, really.
.

doesn't this depend on the panning law of whatever mixer you are using?

-craig

starfinger wrote:

Puce wrote:

deshead wrote:6db

3db

doesn't this depend on the panning law of whatever mixer you are using?

Good call. To clarify, when one speaker is playing a signal, it puts out half the sound pressure of two speakers. Doubling the sound pressure increases the volume by 50%, or 3db. Some mixers compensate for this; most don't.

Also, historically the advice has been to err on the side of panning too wide, because there was a time when lots of music was played out of ghetto-blasters and the like. With the iPod revolution headphone use has skyrocketed. It's good to keep this in mind (again, if you care about these things). Also consider using stereo-panning on instruments that would normally be panned ~50% to one side (just don't stereo-pan every instrument, or you will end up with phase-soup).