The Song Fight Bulletin Board

Hi gang,

You guys seem to know stuff about stuff, so I thought I'd fish for some facts/opinions/other.

My web site is www.jimtyrrell.net. I'd have bought the .com, but it was already in use by a California realtor. Well, for whatever reason, he stopped using it. But the site didn't come available (at least not to me).

This weekend, I received an email from http://www.webnamesolution.com offering the .com domain to me for $199.95.

Are they 'cybersquatting'? Am I stuck paying their asking price, or do I have any kind of 'rights of ownership' or anything like that? The research I've done leads me to believe that it's probably something I could argue, but it would probably cost me more than 200 bucks to do it, not to mention being a big ol' pain in the ass.

Anyone got any input?

jimtyrrell wrote:Hi gang,

hi

Are they 'cybersquatting'?

yes

Am I stuck paying their asking price

yes

do I have any kind of 'rights of ownership' or anything like that?

no

Yeah, that's kind of what I was afraid of.

You think they'd haggle? I'm really not worth two hundred bucks. Although it's nice that they're speculating on at least that much success. Or maybe they're counting on good times for the real estate guy...

jimtyrrell wrote:Yeah, that's kind of what I was afraid of.

You think they'd haggle? I'm really not worth two hundred bucks. Although it's nice that they're speculating on at least that much success. Or maybe they're counting on good times for the real estate guy...

no way of knowing, i guess it can't hurt to try.

.com is passe, tho. .org is where the action is.

I own 10,000 domains, and deal with issues like this a lot. I don't own domains that are names of people like the one you want, but in general you don't really have any rights to it, unless your name is famous enough so it is like a trademark. Considering a bunch of other people in the USA probably have the same name as you, it would be hard to argue that everybody who goes to jimtyrrell.com expects to find your site.

On the other hand, your name is also a business, since you sell CDs and perform shows, so you might be able to argue some rights to it based on that. No matter what though, it would cost you more than $199 to deal with it, and involve a huge amount of time and effort.

$199 is pretty cheap for a domain that has already been in use before, so you should buy it. But, it can't hurt to try to negotiate. I would offer them $50 for it. The domain only has value to very few people, so I doubt they have ever had any offers on it.

When I sell a domain, usually I have the buyer make an offer, and then I make a counter offer of at least double or triple whatever they offer, even if I would have been happy with what they originally offered. And, sometimes no matter what they won't budge and I sell it for their original offer.

MC Eric B wrote:I own 10,000 domains, and deal with issues like this a lot. I don't own domains that are names of people like the one you want, but in general you don't really have any rights to it, unless your name is famous enough so it is like a trademark. Considering a bunch of other people in the USA probably have the same name as you, it would be hard to argue that everybody who goes to jimtyrrell.com expects to find your site.

On the other hand, your name is also a business, since you sell CDs and perform shows, so you might be able to argue some rights to it based on that. No matter what though, it would cost you more than $199 to deal with it, and involve a huge amount of time and effort.

$199 is pretty cheap for a domain that has already been in use before, so you should buy it. But, it can't hurt to try to negotiate. I would offer them $50 for it. The domain only has value to very few people, so I doubt they have ever had any offers on it.

When I sell a domain, usually I have the buyer make an offer, and then I make a counter offer of at least double or triple whatever they offer, even if I would have been happy with what they originally offered. And, sometimes no matter what they won't budge and I sell it for their original offer.

so let's recap:

you're a bad musician
you're a terrible rapper
AND you're a scum of the earth cybersquatter

does your mom know about any of this?

offer them to go f- themselves. give NOTHING to cybersquatters. don't give them any more reasons to engage in their shitty leech parasite behaviors. they're almost as bad as the spammers.
-bill

blue - Just because I own 10,000 domains does not make me a cybersquatter. But, I do appreciate the fact that you called me a "musician" and "rapper".

Anyhow, I actually use 400 of my domains for real websites (Bored.com is my largest site, which gets 2 million visitors per month). I am NOT a cybersquatter. I do not buy domains to resell them, I buy them to use myself, but people look up that I am the owner and then email me with offers sometimes.

Also, cybersquatting is only when a person buys domains of trademarked words, with the intention of selling them to the trademark holder, or using them to make money because of the popularity of the name. I do none of that.

It would like me calling you a slumlord, just because you own a bunch of rental properties, without me having any idea of what you actually own and how you operate your business.

And, my mother actually works for me. She hated her previous job so 10 years ago she quit to do computer work for me.

fuck. I am embarassed to be a part of this. and I run it. fuck.

MC Eric B wrote:I own 10,000 domains...

I do not buy domains to resell them, I buy them to use myself

I'm sure you have the best of intentions, but you have to realize that there isn't a single person in the world that is going to believe you when you say that. Even if it's true. To continue your analogy, it's like owning a bunch of rental properties and then telling us that you live in all of them.

When are your other 9,600 web sites going public?

bzl wrote:

MC Eric B wrote:I own 10,000 domains...

I'm sure you have the best of intentions, but you have to realize that there isn't a single person in the world that is going to believe you when you say that. Even if it's true.

A real quick whois search and some googleing about actually lends credence to his story - makes him look like a bajillionaire web bizkid. Still with sucky songcraft - are you hiring ?

Looks like someone had a similar experience, and pursued the investigation a little further:

http://vibol.hou.cc/2006/10/24/godaddy- ... -practice/

There's a possibility that these guys don't even have the domain? Their TOS also states that the payment is non-refundable. I don't think a phone call to these guys would be very productive, unless expletives count as currency over in Assholia.

bzl - Ok, let me clarify. It is not Cybersquatting to buy lots of domains and not use them, like I have. Cybersquatting "is registering, trafficking in, or using a domain name with bad-faith intent to profit from the goodwill of a trademark belonging to someone else."

I do not buy trademark domains (or domains that are people, company, or product names). I either buy domains that I think I will eventually use, I buy them because I think they will get a bunch of hits, or I buy them as an investment because I think somebody will eventually buy them. Here are some examples of domains I sold in the past year:
moveme.com - $20,000
getsurgery.com - $4,000
BuyPartySupplies.com - $15,000
LushWines.com - $5,000
AncestryStore.com - $15,000
joefixit.com - $500
thug4life.com - $475
allfaxes.com - $1000
getblessed.com - $3000

Here's an example of domains I own with the word "songs" in them:
getsongs.com
greatsongs.com
ordersongs.com
coolsongs.com
rapsongs.com
totalsongs.com
cheapsongs.com
dumbsongs.com
clubsongs.com
anysongs.com
buysongs.net
playingsongs.com
storingsongs.com
uploadsongs.com
ratingsongs.com
funkysongs.com
popularsongs.com
latinsongs.com
hottestsongs.com
catchysongs.com
crazysongs.com
bargainsongs.com
jewsongs.com
createsongs.com
songsigs.com
reviewsongs.com
savesongs.com
nerdcoresongs.com
dialsongs.com
buildsongs.com
songspotlight.com

I don't use 90% of those song domains, but I still make money from them. They are "parked", which means I forward them to a domain parking company (like http://www.trafficvalet.com/aff.php?1 ) which puts pay per click search engine results on them, and then I make money every time a websurfer clicks on one of the links.

adrift in a draft - I am not hiring anybody for anything in particular right now, but sometimes I need people to do various projects for me. What do you do?

MC Eric B wrote:I buy them as an investment because I think somebody will eventually buy them.

Regardless of any clueless-politician's definition, what you say above is how I define cybersquatting personally, and I believe I'm not alone. You may define it as you wish to mollify your conscience, and you are in the legal right.

However, in my personal ever-so-humble opinion it is immoral to register domains you *think* someone else may want so that you can squeeze them for money when they go to register the name.

Just so you know. I don't hate you fort it, but I'm not going to invite you to any dinner parties. And you're probably going to hell.

I'm gonna move this thread to MonkeyBusiness I think.

JB

jb - I can't think of a perfect analogy, but how is that any different than if I buy a bunch of houses in my neighborhood and then resell them years later (at a higher price) to people who want to live there?

I bought the vast majority of my domains back in the 1990's. It cost me $35/year back then to buy them plus $35/year, and it was a risky investment since domains could have eventually become worthless. Why should you have the right to buy jb.com for $10 now?

If I bought a painting for $35 back in the 1990's and it had a market value of $1000 today, should you be able to buy it from me for $35 still? Why are domains different?

I'm not gonna argue with you, man. I feel how I feel, and I feel like what you do is slimy. We could argue about it all day long. I'll let somebody else do that.

jb

I'm game...

Well, I think the reason for buying a web domain is because you have an idea for how to use it. If the purchaser's idea of how to use it is 'to sell to someone who has an ACTUAL idea how to use it', some people might find that an unsatisfactory motivation.

jimtyrrell - Buying and selling domains is a huge business, just like buying and selling real estate for investment purposes. It is called speculation. Many people don't like speculators in any business, but and that is certainly a valid point, but domains are no different than other speculative type ventures.

That being said, I did buy my domains for more than just to resell/speculate. Back in teh 1990's there were no domain p[arking companies, so I actually put some rough content on each of these domains myself. Usually just a bunch of affiliate links. For example, on my mteverest.com domain, I had affilaite links to travel sites and mountain equipment suppliers. Kind of like what you would see in Google, but I hand selected the links to match the domain, plus I had to signup as an affiliate for each site. I also then submitted my sites to the major search engines, to get traffic to them.

So, I actually made money from each of my domains. Selling them was just a bonus, if I happened to get an offer. Otherwise, it would not have been worth it to pay $35/year for each of them.

Hey Jim – you know, my BF recently let his website lapse, and got a similar “offer” to buy it back. He did nothing – just waited – and was able to buy it back a few months later for the regular old price.

Given that “jimtyrell.com” will be of limited interest to anyone not named “Jim Tyrell” you might just wait ‘em out. I’ll ask Chad for further details on the specifics of what happened and PM you if you’d like.

--Em

Actually...

During this whole thing, it *appears* the domain has been purchased by a dude of the same name as myself. I actually emailed him and talked a little about what he plans to do with it and all. Sounds like a stand-up guy. I don't know how much he paid, or through whom he obtained it though.

So at least it's in the hands of someone who actually has the name, right?

Also: my last name has 2 Rs in it. I should really register jimtyrell.com though, huh? Everybody spells it that way.

Oops! That was a typo. (Is anyone else having massive Mozilla problems posting to the boards?? I sure am...)

I have the same gut feeling JB does about this cybersquating issue. But I honestly can't say it's anything other than my inner "the internet shouldn't be commercialized" voice. Prospecting is a reality and profit from similar investment is too. I wouldn't live in the house I live in if not for the profit made from a previous house. And hell, I wish I bought a couple years ago and rented them, with my "I'd be a sensitive and responsive landlord" hat on.

But there will always be cheap land. It just moves around with the cycles of economic misfortune. SOHO NYC was a wasteland and now it's ... well, it's a wasteland of another kind. The lower east side, Williamsburg, Park Slope, Brooklyn Heights. They have all gone through cycles of re-"valuation". As have the neighborhoods of San Francisco, Baltimore and any city. Except perhaps Columbus.

But I can't really transfer this to the internet as easily. Meaningful domains start disappearing and we're left with Xf746ip003.com. Which is sorta cool in a secret hideaway kind of way but hardly handy at parties. And prices, once a site is held up by squaters, aren't expected to go down.

The internet is STILL in the wild west stage and I think it needs to stay there a while longer, and let more people get up to speed. I feel effective streaming video has JUST moved it out of the colonial age into the expanding nation stage. Never mind the industrial age. Hell, Adobe's Apollo may be the first sign of real innovation in a long while.

These aren't very good analogies, but I feel the internet is still too young to tie down with this stuff. Call me naive.