The Song Fight Bulletin Board

Okay, I go to the movies at least once a week, sometimes more if there is something I really want to see. So I saw two movies this weekend, and the pre-trailer advertising was identical for both. During each time, there was a commercial for an NBC show called "American Dreams" which is a period piece set in the 1960s. Their hook is that they have current musical acts on weekly to play the role of famous songsters from the 60s on some sort of American Bandstand-esque program.

The commercial was all "Can you guess who these people are?" or something to that effect. And both times, the folks in the theater would be all excited that they could identify Brandy in a wig, or Jessica Simpson's husband with a perm and an ascot, or (for the somewhat "older" people in the audience) Chris Isaak behind a pair of sunglasses. But when Liz Phair was shot up on the screen, no one besides me seemed to know who she was. And then when they put her name underneath her image, still nobody knew who she was.

So, is Ms Phair's reach for stardom working? Do people know who she is? Will she be able to continue on the road towards household name, or will her next album take a turn back towards Reallyfamousunkownperson-ville?

isn't she the one that did some interesting music, then followed it up with some trite bullcrap that any stupid teen idol could have done? forgive me if i'm wrong, but i think she did some really crummy stuff just recently to make her much less interesting in my eyes.
-bill

i thought everyone knew who she was already. that one shitty song she had recently played on the radio at work 10 million times a day.

I know of Liz Phair, but only because she was the opening act for a Jason Mraz gig I went to last summer at the electric factory in Philly. And didn't she have that video with the white room and the band, and it was generally really crappy?

Personally, I don't like her much. *shrugs*

geez, i didn't even realise she was still around and doing stuff.
i also didn't realise she was trying to get famous.

although i did hear of her again semi-recently -- she had a song on a sampler that aware records sent me along with a cd i bought from them last spring or sometime.

I didn't give my opinion of Liz Phair or really ask for other people's opinions of her because I'm really more interested in her desire to gain a wider audience than whether anyone likes her music or not.

15-16 puzzle wrote:I didn't give my opinion of Liz Phair or really ask for other people's opinions of her because I'm really more interested in her desire to gain a wider audience than whether anyone likes her music or not.

You should write to her then.

Well, seems like people know who she is, and your question is answered. People know that she is the one making the crappy songs lately.
-bill

I've heard her name as being associated with music... I 've never been attracted to any of her music... does n't seem to do anything for me... but she's clearly famous... maybe she's working on the ridiculously rich part...

I get these people mixed up:

Tori Amos
Liz Phair
Aimee Mann
Sarah McLaughlan
Ani DeFranco
... and about six other Lilith Fair types

Jim of Seattle wrote:I get these people mixed up:

Tori Amos
Liz Phair
Aimee Mann
Sarah McLaughlan
Ani DeFranco
... and about six other Lilith Fair types

Jim, I'm surprised at you! I suspect you haven't listened to a lot of music by any of those artists. If you had, you wouldn't have any trouble telling them apart, since among that list each and every one is VERY distinct from the others. There are lists of musicians who I find similar, but that list you gave is almost the antithesis of a list of "people who all sound the same". >:(

As far as Liz Phair trying to get famous, I suspect that she likes to eat and operates under the impression that her children do too. I know that in interviews she has definitively stated that she wanted to appeal to a wider audience with this record. I've got a copy of her last album, and although it's not like her previous work, I enjoy it for its own merits. But then, I like sugar pop music.

People like their artists to give them what they expect. When artists try to branch out, or shift gears, there's almost always an uproar among their fans. But the uproar among Liz Phair's fans doesn't seem to take into account that there were apparently not enough of their kind to encourage Ms. Phair to make another record in her old style.

Struggling sucks. Jill Sobule's (really quite good as usual) latest album has a song on it called "Freshman" that captures what artists of a certain stature go through:

I live like a freshman,
I still have a roommate
I even moved to Brooklyn
I still need a rommate.

I bet you didn't know
I don't make much for this show,
And when I go home

I still have a rommate
I cook on a hot plate
Unless I order pizza
You should see the boxes

This was my dream when I was 13
and now that it's true
I wish I was you

You don't have a roommate
You own your own building
You have a flat-screen tv
You never followed your dreams
They're never what they seem
Never what they seem.

I live like a freshman
I still have a rommate
We walk to the laundry.


(I felt ok about posting these lyrics because Ms. Sobule posts them on her site, but hasn't gotten around to it for this album yet. I heartily encourage you to visit http://www.jillsobule.com )

jb wrote:I know that in interviews she has definitively stated that she wanted to appeal to a wider audience with this record.

Sure, that's a good idea, but it seems to me that she compromised everything that made her music interesting for the lastest song... it was just so... typical. I like some bubblegum stuff too, but it's gotta be interesting!
I've only heard it a couple of times, so take what I say with a grain of salt.
I just feel like it should be possible to appeal to a wider audience without making yourself sound just like the rest of what's on the radio. Isn't it?
Perhaps I'm afraid to hear the answer...
-bill

HeuristicsInc wrote:

jb wrote:I know that in interviews she has definitively stated that she wanted to appeal to a wider audience with this record.

I just feel like it should be possible to appeal to a wider audience without making yourself sound just like the rest of what's on the radio. Isn't it?
Perhaps I'm afraid to hear the answer...
-bill

Two options.

1. Make the audeience wider to fit yourself.
Get your music that you love out there. Have people go, "This is good, 'cause you can tell it's Liz Phair."

2. Widen yourself to fit wider audiences.
Change your music to fit a genre that is big.

Liz Phair is in my mind the greatest female songwriter out there. There are plenty of people who are better musicians, and some who are better singers, but her songs are solid in a way that few can match. If you don't believe me, go out and buy Whitechocolatespaceegg right now. You won't be disappointed. Her latest album, the self-titled "Liz Phair," is the piece of crap that everyone's talking about. I heard that Liz didn't have all the money in the world, and she wanted some of the poop-sensation action, so she (or more likely, her label) got the superstar producers "The Matrix" to butcher her album. Despite their efforts, there are still a couple good tracks on it (I really like Firewalker, for instance), but if you can get any demo versions, they're much better (the demo of "Red Light District" is really nice).

To answer the original question, yeah, I think she wants some of that star-action. I think the whole being-a-wife-and-mother thing blew up in her face, and now she's reacting to it but going too far to the other side.

Her albums:
Girlysounds: 2 CDs worth of girl-and-guitar 4-track recordings. Surprisingly listenable, and a personal favorite. These were circulated around and got her a recording contract. You can find studio recordings of many of these songs on her later albums.
Exile in Guyville: her major-label debut. Classic. It grabs hold of you and doesn't let go.
Whip-smart: this is a sleeper. The first few times I listened to it, I was unimpressed. But I grew to love it, and "Nashville" is IMO one of the greatest songs ever.
Whitechocolatespaceegg: this might be her best album. It's amazing from the first time you listen to it, and it takes a long while to get sick of it. At one point, I listened to this whole thing every morning for about 2 weeks.
Liz Phair: mostly crap, like I said before.

Also, there are lots of demos and single songs that are really amazing (Insanity, Hurricane Cindy, Beginning to See the Light, to name a few).

Anyone who wants a taste should IM me next monday or later (when I'm at my home computer).

Jim of Seattle wrote:I get these people mixed up:
Tori Amos

I wanted so bad to hate Tori Amos, but I couldn't deny the genius of "Boys for Pele." Simply amazing.

Jim of Seattle wrote: Aimee Mann

Aimee Mann is the fucking shiznitch. I dare you to grab a copy of her song "Amateur" and tell me different. Also, "4th of July" is one of the best Girl+Guitar songs ever (outside of Liz's "Perfect World"). Her latest album, "Lost in Space" is something to bask in the glory of.

Jim of Seattle wrote: Sarah McLaughlan

Meh.

Jim of Seattle wrote: Ani DeFranco

I wanted so bad to hate Ani DiFranco (and I she still annoys the shit out of me), but I couldn't deny the genius of "Reveilling/Reckoning." Simply amazing.

Jim of Seattle wrote: ... and about six other Lilith Fair types

I really have a hard time pinning Liz as a Lilith Fair type. I think you should listen more.

I have no idea who Liz Phair is, except that I gather from reading songfight that she's some kind of recording artist.

HeuristicsInc wrote:I just feel like it should be possible to appeal to a wider audience without making yourself sound just like the rest of what's on the radio. Isn't it?

Hmmmmm, it should be possible to do this, but can you think of anyone who has made a concerted attempt for a larger audience while not mainstreaming their sound?

Those two things might be inextricably linked...to appeal to a wider audience would necessitate "mainstreaming" your sound.

Wouldn't it? Well, I guess the only way you could try to make that move without significantly changing your music to appeal to a wider cut of listeners would be to apply more aggressive/bigger budget marketing campaigns. The trick then becomes convincing the money-holders to part with their money if you don't already appeal to a mainstream market.

Vicious circle.

I think the reason I get them all mixed up is that for a long time my wife played nothing but. And I never knew which CD was on, and they changed all the time, and after a while it sort of became "Patrice's girl music collection" in my head. I'm sure if I sat down and listened to each one on its own I'd have no trouble distinguishing them. I DO know that I find Tori Amos WAY too self-consciously emotive, Ani DeFranco too pissed off, Sarah McLaughlan too precious, and Aimee Mann writes the same 6/8 song over & over. Give me PJ Harvey or Bjork any day.

15-16 puzzle wrote:

HeuristicsInc wrote:I just feel like it should be possible to appeal to a wider audience without making yourself sound just like the rest of what's on the radio. Isn't it?

Hmmmmm, it should be possible to do this, but can you think of anyone who has made a concerted attempt for a larger audience while not mainstreaming their sound?

Some guesses:
• Fountains of Wayne (maybe more of an accident than a concerted attempt)
• Elliott Smith (I'm thinking of the Good Will Hunting thing, but then, who knew that movie would be so huge)
• Pearl Jam (I'm not a huge fan, but I don't think they changed much, although their debut was huge, so it's not like they had a chance to "mainstream" their sound)
• Nine Inch Nails (I don't think he mainstreamed his sound, but he put it in a lot of places where it could be heard--movies, primarily)
• Aimee Mann (again, if you put a whole bunch of songs in a Tom Cruise movie, people are probably going to notice)

frankie big face wrote:

15-16 puzzle wrote:

HeuristicsInc wrote:I just feel like it should be possible to appeal to a wider audience without making yourself sound just like the rest of what's on the radio. Isn't it?

Hmmmmm, it should be possible to do this, but can you think of anyone who has made a concerted attempt for a larger audience while not mainstreaming their sound?

Some guesses:
• Fountains of Wayne (maybe more of an accident than a concerted attempt)
• Elliott Smith (I'm thinking of the Good Will Hunting thing, but then, who knew that movie would be so huge)
• Pearl Jam (I'm not a huge fan, but I don't think they changed much, although their debut was huge, so it's not like they had a chance to "mainstream" their sound)
• Nine Inch Nails (I don't think he mainstreamed his sound, but he put it in a lot of places where it could be heard--movies, primarily)
• Aimee Mann (again, if you put a whole bunch of songs in a Tom Cruise movie, people are probably going to notice)

I dunno, seems like most of those were fortuitous events rather than concerted attempts. I know that Aimee Mann's songs were used in Magnolia because the director is a giant fan of her music. And Pearl Jam took advantage of a zeitgeist. People were just ready for that style, and they grabbed on. Certainly Pearl Jam wasn't really looking for it, as their subsequent actions have shown. And Elliott (sigh) I think just got lucky.

When was the NIN fad? I can't remember. Seems to me like there was kind of an evolution out of grunge which produced stuff like NIN and Marilyn Manson and which gradually morphed into the Limp Bizkit numetal style we so loathe today. But there's a giant pool of anger those bands are tapping into. Unfocused anger. Kids have all this aggressive energy they don't know what to do with.

I think the first option listed above is a little wrong. I think you've got to get lucky and have your style become the mainstream for a time, like happened with Pearl Jam, or you've got to do like number 2 and alter your style to fit more mainstream audiences.

People in the indie crowd don't often do this I think, but we've seen it a lot from the Christian people (Amy Grant, Michael W Smith), the country people (Shania Twain, "Chris Gaines"), the punk people (does No Doubt count? certainly a lot of those pop punk bands used to be more hardcore), and the latin folks (Ricky Martin, Gloria Estefan). But they call it "crossover" for those genres.

I think Sugar Ray used to be kind of a metal band, until they made that one song that was a giant hit, then they just wrote songs like that one.

i think alot of the pressure to mainstream the sound is coming from the label and the money people, and not so much from the artist. there is always going to be that pressure to increase your demographic from the investors, even if it's a short sighted one that usually compromises artistic integrity, may lead to loss of the original fan base, and may oversaturate the artist to the point where they can become flash in the pan old news. like liz phair said herself...fuck and run.

i think the best alternative is the artist that assumes control over this limiting aspect of their music (marketing and distribution), artists like ani defranco and prince, stand the best chance of increasing their fan base and maintaining as much creative control over the content as possible.

if liz phair were an ugly broad, she wouldn't still be getting this sort of attention in the media. the fact that she's attractive certainly doesn't hurt her cause.

jb wrote:I think you've got to get lucky and have your style become the mainstream for a time, like happened with Pearl Jam, or you've got to do like number 2 and alter your style to fit more mainstream audiences.

Yeah, this is more like what I was trying to get at. The albums that are more interesting are those that mold the world to suit their sound, rather than the other way around. Then a ton of copycats come around and do a crapload of songs that sound like it and it becomes boring
But I guess there is a whole lot of luck involved in getting the wide audience to hear your songs, then, if you're not going to go the populist route on purpose.
-bill