The Song Fight Bulletin Board

what a crock of shit.

What did you expect?

See? It pays to be loyal. Just like in all those mafia movies.

But see, here's the thing about the U.S.:

I jokingly said from my cube, "Hey, since Paris went to jail I TOTALLY think that Scooter should have to go to jail too!"

My co-worker said, "Scooter? I don't know who that is. I totally think Lindsay should go to jail though."

Perhaps my deadpan is too dead.

anti-m wrote:But see, here's the thing about the U.S.:

I jokingly said from my cube, "Hey, since Paris went to jail I TOTALLY think that Scooter should have to go to jail too!"

My co-worker said, "Scooter? I don't know who that is. I totally think Lindsay should go to jail though."

Perhaps my deadpan is too dead.

Don't worry, I think liberal scooters are a hazard to our society too. Damn libby scooters.

He must have some strong shit on Bush to get away with this blackmail. Awesome.

More like, Bush isn't done with him yet. He has plans for ol Libby. If Libby had sh!t on Bush, Libby would wind up dead.

I would be very very concerned living in a country where a President can over rule both the legislature and the judiciary. That is scary government.

And a President who can allow a convicted criminal to go free contrary to the ruling of a court - while still allow almost 400 men to be held illegally for over 5 years without charge or trial at Guantanamo Bay.

Oh my god, you're right, our government is terrible!

WeaselSlayer wrote:Oh my god, you're right, our government is terrible!

Noting your sarcasm, but he does have a point.

So did I and millions of others like 3 years ago. I don't need outside perspective to tell me the American government is fucked, and anyone who does is an idiot. I've heard heaps of criticism of our government from people outside of America, and let me tell you: it's no secret when you're living in the middle of it.

So according to you people aren't qualified to talk about a government whose decisions affect the world simply because they don't come from the country in question? Does that make you a racist?

Way to interpret. I just don't need boring political commentary recycled over and over again presented to me like some great epiphany. Especially when I hear it again and again from people who assume we Americans haven't caught on to what's happening in our own country. I didn't say nobody is qualified to talk about it, just please bring something new to the table that I haven't known for fucking ever.

WeaselSlayer wrote:So did I and millions of others like 3 years ago. I don't need outside perspective to tell me the American government is fucked, and anyone who does is an idiot. I've heard heaps of criticism of our government from people outside of America, and let me tell you: it's no secret when you're living in the middle of it.

oh, I dunno. party politics are part of the problem, no doubt in my mind. I say that as a student of political science and as as someone who voted Democrats up and down the line, volunteered more than 40 hours for them, and voted in their primary last year.

WeaselSlayer wrote: I didn't say nobody is qualified to talk about it, just please bring something new to the table that I haven't known for fucking ever.

So do you wanna give us a list of everything you've known for fucking ever, or should we just run our posts by you before we post them?

Caravan Ray wrote:I would be very very concerned living in a country where a President can over rule both the legislature and the judiciary. That is scary government.

And a President who can allow a convicted criminal to go free contrary to the ruling of a court - while still allow almost 400 men to be held illegally for over 5 years without charge or trial at Guantanamo Bay.

A couple of things bother me about your statements.
#1. The Guantanamo Bay statement is so fucking weak. They were/are prisoners of war and we are at war. Not that I or most Americans like it, or the world for that matter, but it's the same thing that has happened with our P.O.Ws through history. But the only difference is that we don't chop the heads off of our P.O.Ws on camera for their families and world to see. We take the time to release and return the innocent with financial aid to get them back to their lives. Sure, a small effort, but it's better than slaughtering them when we're done with them. In the process we have removed key al-qaeda threats to the world, so you're fucking welcome.

#2. Does Bush actually care about America? I believe he does. I hate to use a light hearted baking analogy here, but you have to break a few eggs to make a cake.
We have so much back and forth pull between Liberalism and Conservatism that at some point, someone has to do what it takes to get shit done. It's very easy for me to swing from Michael Moore's nut sack so that I can take the safe route. Truth is, I have my opinions, but I have to put my trust in the people the majority put in power. Do I agree with all of the decisions made? Hell no I don't! I don't like to see even one human being suffer for a second. The pains of the world are heavy on my heart every single day. But who am I to make a call on something that I have very little knowledge about.
Bush's "regime" has produced some very unpopular decisions and many that have come up empty. Sure, Bush is a dolt, or at least he seems like a dildo to most people. I don't like how these decisions are effecting me personally, but I'm an American, and if I have to personally suffer for a while to insure the freedom of my children and the future of the United States, I'll suffer with pride.
But I still have to ask, is he acting in the best interests of America? He lives here, his children and their children live here. So yes, I think so.

I'd like to point out, I don't hold hatred towards people with different opinions than mine. Opinions are just that. Also, even though I my seem to be an extreme conservative from the above, I am most definitely not.
I tend to roll with conservative liberalism because I'm not an extremest in either direction. A fence straddler if you will.

Billy's Little Trip wrote:We take the time to release and return the innocent with financial aid to get them back to their lives.

Surely we are not talking about the same GitMo here. Many of the denizens of GitMo don't even know what crimes they've been charged with.

Their site appears to be down, currently, but I'd refer you to the This American Life episode that deals with Habeas Corpus to understand why folks are so exercised about GitMo.

http://www.thislife.org (All their shows can be streamed for free)

Billy's Little Trip wrote:

Caravan Ray wrote:I would be very very concerned living in a country where a President can over rule both the legislature and the judiciary. That is scary government.

And a President who can allow a convicted criminal to go free contrary to the ruling of a court - while still allow almost 400 men to be held illegally for over 5 years without charge or trial at Guantanamo Bay.

#1. The Guantanamo Bay statement is so fucking weak. They were/are prisoners of war and we are at war. Not that I or most Americans like it, or the world for that matter, but it's the same thing that has happened with our P.O.Ws through history. But the only difference is that we don't chop the heads off of our P.O.Ws on camera for their families and world to see. We take the time to release and return the innocent with financial aid to get them back to their lives. Sure, a small effort, but it's better than slaughtering them when we're done with them.

In the process we have removed key al-qaeda threats to the world, so you're fucking welcome.

...I hate to use a light hearted baking analogy here, but you have to break a few eggs to make a cake.

Thats just it, they aren't classified as POWs. Thats half the problem right there. NOT BEING SNARKY: You might read up on the loopholes we're utilizing because of this very thing.

And on both notes, how many eggs have to get broken to get the cake baked? Will the cake even get baked thoroughly or even at all? Unfortunately history will be the only way to determine this.
(personally I don't think our president can bake worth a crap)

Billy's Little Trip wrote:
A couple of things bother me about your statements.
#1. The Guantanamo Bay statement is so fucking weak. They were/are prisoners of war and we are at war. Not that I or most Americans like it, or the world for that matter, but it's the same thing that has happened with our P.O.Ws through history. But the only difference is that we don't chop the heads off of our P.O.Ws on camera for their families and world to see. We take the time to release and return the innocent with financial aid to get them back to their lives. Sure, a small effort, but it's better than slaughtering them when we're done with them. In the process we have removed key al-qaeda threats to the world, so you're fucking welcome.

You might want to research that a bit.

No - they are not prisoners of war. They are not being held as prisoners of war in accordance with the Geneva Conventions, to which the USA is signatory. They have not been charged with any crime under any international or domestic law. Many were not even captured in Afghanistan or Iraq, but in places like Bosnia or Palestine.

They are simply being held illegally.

The one single prisoner from Guantanamo Bay who has received any sort of legal process (a process which was since found illegal anyway) was David Hicks, who made a plea bargain in which he admitted guilt to "material support of terrorism". He was not charged with committing any act of terrorism, he was not charged with being involved in the planning any act of terrorism. He was not charged with committing any act of war against the USA or her allies. He had however endured 5 years of illegal detention and (he claims) torture.

As a result of his plea bargain - he will be free and walking the streets of Adelaide (probably going round to Sausage Boy's place for a beer) before the end or the year.

Of the over 700 men who have been illegally detained by the USA and tortured in Guantanamo, or 'rendered' to Egypt and other places for torture, Hicks is the one single one for whom the US military has been able to drag enough evidence together to take to trial. Considering what a 'dangerous' man Hicks must be - doesn't it make you wonder what the 400 reamining detainees are supposed to have done?

but I digress...

Weasleslayer wrote: Oh my god, you're right, our government is terrible!

I didn't realise you were being sarcastic. I have no doubt that an intelligent young gentleman such as yourself is well aware of his countries government. I was actually pointing out something that I hadn't previously been aware of. It has only been since reading news of the Libby case and the recent Presedential veto of the bill to draw troops out of Iraq that I realised what powers the US President actually has. I have worked in Government for many years, and our way of doing things has become quite second nature to me. Parliment, and especially the judiciary are seen as being quite sacrosanct. To my petty bureaucratic mind, the idea that one man may overturn the decisions of these is quite shocking.

Well, I trust your opinions Anti, because you've always shown intelligence and fairness in your posts. And I'm sure I'm under informed. I do pay attention to my surrounding and the people in them. But I am a product of our society and media. I try to read between the lines and understand things the best I can. But it would be crazy to think that some innocent people aren't going to get caught in the crossfire in time of war. War is a horrible thing.

Also, I'm sure that half the people in our county jails don't know why they're being held either. I find it hard to believe that any of the POWs at GitMo were pulled out of their houses while eating dinner with their family. Maybe they were, I don't know. If they were, then that would be awful.

edit:
Two posts came in while I was responding to Anti-M. OK, both good points and both have me Googling a bit. So I won't refer to the prisoners captured during war, as prisoners of war, anymore.
I should know better than getting involved in a political thread.

Billy's Little Trip wrote:Well, I trust your opinions Anti

Certainly don't take my word for it! That's dangerous!



But, seriously, the ThisLife team has done some great stuff about GitMo, Habeas Corpus, and the lack thereof. Do check them out when they get their site fixed.

And, yes, Mr. Ray, I do believe that more and more Americans are FINALLY galled by the apparent disregard the current administration has for the constitution, our laws, and international laws. GW and his minions may yet be tarred, feathered, and rode outta town on a rail.

anti-m wrote: And, yes, Mr. Ray, I do believe that more and more Americans are FINALLY galled by the apparent disregard the current administration has for the constitution, our laws, and international laws. GW and his minions may yet be tarred, feathered, and rode outta town on a rail.

I actually wasn't really referring to the current administration in particular, more that your constitution actually does allow any President the power to veto a Congress decision and to issue Presidential pardons. That is what surprises me.

Constitutional Law isn't my strong point, but I believe in Australia our Head of State (the Governor-General, who acts on behalf of Elizabeth II, Queen of Australia) must give Royal Assent to any law passed through Parliment. He is supposed to act on the advice of the Prime Minister, though in theory, the G-G could refuse assent - and effectively veto. It woudn't work though, because the Prime Minister can sack the G-G and appoint a new one.

In 1975, the G-G actually dissolved Parliment becase of a double dissolution on a money supply bill. It was seen as a major constitutional crisis at the time, but in hindsight, it seems to have worked out OK. The Government of the day couldn't govern because it had a hostile Senate, so a new election was called, the Government changed, and Parliment was able to operate again. That was the only time an Australian G-G has ever exercised any real constitutional power.

The point is, those of us living under Westminster systems of government would see the powers of the US President as being quite unusual. Power here is concentrated in the Cabinet, and the Cabinet is answerable to both Parliment and caucus.

Having said all that though, our Government has also set up Guantanamo-like gulags, first at Port Hedland and Woomera - then later off-shore at Nauru, to imprison refugees. Our government is a pack of pricks too.