The Song Fight Bulletin Board

So with people talking about control surfaces lately, I've been wondering about this. What do you all think about "riding the faders", aka adding automated level adjustments to the tracks in a song? (If you've got a program like Cubase, Logic, ProTools, etc. you record this automation data, so when you mix down your song, the level adjustments are repeated automatically, for anybody who doesn't know what I'm talking about. I'm probably not explaining it well...) In the old days I guess engineers would just make notes about relative level changes, then when they did a mix down they would have to actually hover over the mixing board moving the faders appropriately, though again I may not be explaining that well or accurately.

Anyway, it's a mixing tool that I never really use, unless I need to correct some really bad change in level in a performance. Even though I guess I will usually just edit the sample to eg reduce the gain on the section that's too loud. Partly this is because my recordings are all for SongFight! or other similar contests with crushing deadlines. Partly it's because I'm lazy. Partly it's because I don't know how useful it is.

Any thoughts?

Our software allows us to create "envelopes" which control the level of each track. I use them extensively. This is not done in real time, but as a part of the track data.

I've never had the luxury of automation in my home studio, so like many, I've learned to use other tricks to achieve the same effect.
Now I do have it with Cubase, but I don't use it. I've tried, but I haven't gotten it to work the way I want it to. I'm sure that if, and when, I have the need, I'll learn how to use all of the Cubase features. My biggest problem is that I can't nail the levels exactly where I want them, on the fly, using a mouse. Clicking tracks off and on works pretty good. As far as trying to automate panning, forget it, it's really hard.
I just use gain to raise and lower the volume of a segment on the same track, or I just move that segment to it's own track, but it's a waste of a track if it's a small piece.
If I want a spot turned of in a track, I just delete that spot.

Garageband has a very good system where you can fade or pan any part of any track just by dragging blobs on a line with your mouse.

I used to 'ride the faders' when needed, and now that I work in the box mostly, using Cubase, I employ automation very frequently. It was a kicker to get my head wrapped around, but once I figured it out, I never looked back. Automating the standard stuff (faders, panning, track on and off) is useful, but getting into vst/vsti parameter automation is a whole new way to work with your instrument/effect, either by recording mouse movements in real time or using some kind of linear envelope type system like Cubase uses. It can be a real time saver in a mix for sure once you get used to it.

i have done this a lot, but mostly for special fx rather than adding drama to a mix. It usually sounds pretty stupid, unless I go back and edit the automation curve by hand. I'm not very graceful.

-craig

I voted "never" although once in a while I'll do a couple adjustments during a mix - but I usually try to record it so that it doesn't need adjusting. However, my freind Lewis, who has mixed a couple of my recent submissions, works in ProTools and I think he does a lot of on-the-fly adjustments. Usually, any adjustments I do during a mix are to cover up some sort of mistake or to match levels between punch-in sections that somehow got recorded differently.

Although I'm working in digital... well, to be honest, I don't even know whethre my standalone recorder is capable of recording volume (and other) adjustments or not. I suppose it is, but it would be one more thing to fit into my brain, which filled up long ago...

Charles 9KA)

I use a digital 16-track for my recordings, and I almost always ride the faders (as well as punch tracks in and out) when doing final mixdowns.

Most of my Songfight entries are recorded in Acid because it makes a good multitrack tool (for the most part). It also has volume and effect envelopes (cf. Spud), and I use them a good bit.
-bill

I use tracktion. And there's evidently a keyboard shortcut for it that I don't know, because every once in awhile, I'll be listening to a song after I did something extreme to mess with the EQ or some such, and it goes back and does it again. It's very annoying.

Though I guess it could be very useful if you were into that kind of thing. Since it'll record any changes you make to any effects.

50/50. When I first learned about it in Cubasis around the time I started fighting (Cubasis: the late '90s lite version of Cubase which I still use on my ancient Mac) I went nuts with it. Unfortunately, I'd usually be mixing with loop song turned on, which would do funky things to the automation Now, however, not so much, as I'm getting more of a handle on controlling the dynamics from the instrument's end. Still gets used from time to time. It's a hoot to watch the virtual faders moving all over the place, like there's a ghost in the machine.

rogerroll wrote:I use tracktion. And there's evidently a keyboard shortcut for it

i don't know the keyboard shortcut offhand, but [in tracktion2 at least] there is an automation write button that records knob movements when recording or playing back the song. it's a little red a in a box, I think.

the results of this show up in envelopes that you can delete or otherwise edit..

-craig

Rubber Bands & EQ... sometimes it's harder than other times. I just try to mix tracks around others by lowering certain frequencies.

I use a fair amount of hardware compression (saves time later) on most instruments IN. When recording bands I won't do this (except vocals). I'll add compression later.

Riding the mix is almost an outdated term. (IMO)

I usually use some track automation but not that much. I usually compress each track individually before mixing it all together, which reduces the amount of fader-riding I have to do.

I like the automix as an assistant. I use a Roland 24 track all in one jobby and while I do my best to set and forget, the help from automix is fantastic. You have to listen to your mix a thousand times anyway, and practice fades, fx, etc. as much too, but I like when you've got parts figured out how you can record the automix, adjusting a couple of tracks, then go back on the next pass and set up other tracks. You can punch in/out mix mistakes after you've listened again. When you're all done, hit go and sit back and watch the fader show. I earned my homemade stripes fader surfing but love the help.

fluffy wrote:I usually use some track automation but not that much. I usually compress each track individually before mixing it all together, which reduces the amount of fader-riding I have to do.

EXACTLY. With clean guitar, bass, and vocals... I do this before it even gets to the sound card. Spend a lot of time on pre-sets so I can plug and play. I still run into problems with EQ because my voice and my guitar often don't play well together. I'm working on that.

thehipcola wrote:but getting into vst/vsti parameter automation is a whole new way to work with your instrument/effect, either by recording mouse movements in real time or using some kind of linear envelope type system like Cubase uses.

Now this is something I'm finding that I have a need for. I tend to use a multitude of tube levels per track. It may be because of my use of tape for so long, or it might just be my type of music, but regardless, my ears NEED the warmth I get from my tube drivers because digital recording is so sterile.
My problem is that the quiet parts, where I have heavy tube use on the track, it will pick up the tube fuzz and sound staticy. I need to lower or cut the tube in the quiet parts. Of course I can achieve this by just splitting the track and moving the parts to two different tracks and adjust each track as I see fit, but I'd like to get more familiar with my Cubase features, because I need to limit cpu consumption.
I seem to have a real problem with computer freeze ups because of all of the per track fx and dynamic tools I use. As a recommendation from a member here, I can't remember who, I now mix down my individual tracks with all FX and dynamics to a single stereo track, (never with master FX) then start a new 24 track project that I import all of my stereo tracks with all of the VST FX built in, and I use the new project for the final mixing. IE: left guitar track and right guitar track, each with their VST FX get mixed to one stereo track. The same with drums, IE toms, kick, snare, over heads, room, hat and any other added percussion, all get different EQ and FX per track and are mixed to one stereo track, etc etc. Keep in mind that I've already made all of my decisions per track before I mix down a group to one track. (bounce?)
It's so nice to have a clean mix down project that condensed over 30 tracks with tons of VST FX, down to about 12 to 14 tracks. (track 13 is never used, ever ). Then all I have to worry about is getting volume levels right, master mix down compression, multi band equalizing and a few of my new secret tweaks, to get that pro sound I've been getting, lol.
This may all be very common knowledge and you guys are wondering why I'm telling you all of this. But to me, I feel like I discovered something new and I wanted to share, so sorry if I just wasted 10 to 60 seconds of your time, depending on your reading ability.
....actually, new guys may get some use from this, so I'm not sorry.

Good question, Lunk. In fact, I was going to ask it myself.

I use track and pan automation one hundred thousand percent of the time. Even on skirmishes, which is probably why I never finish before the 60/90 minute deadline.

I ride them "automagically" i.e. Spud and Caravan Ray.

we record live into one mic and the rest of you are gigantic vaginas.

blue wrote:we record live into one mic and the rest of you are gigantic vaginas.

Hey blue, we have something in common! I record all my guy'n'acoustic songs in one mic in one take. Trouble is, it takes around 20 to 40 takes to get the "prestine" takes you hear here on SF. 8)

I adjust the levels of each track only so they are just below peaking by compression OR by hard adjusting the volume, but I rarely adjust the levels within a single track unless, as The King said, it <i>really</i> needs it. I usually double tracks for that fuller brush sound and if the levels are weak, I may triple certain portions, but I've only done this probably 2 times outta the two dozen tracks I've recorded since learning about the magnificence of track doubling. Mmmmm.... doubling!

blue wrote:we record live into one mic and the rest of you are gigantic vaginas.

Didn't the Apples in Stereo do something stupid like this?