The Song Fight Bulletin Board

Hello - I am having issues having my recordings sound nice. I'm playing an acoustic guitar with a condenser mic. Is there stuff I should be doing post recording like adding small reverb, EQ, etc? It just doesn't seem to sound the same as when I play live.

Where do you record? How do you record?

I like to mic an acoustic from about 12 inches away with a small diaphragm condenser pointed at the spot where the neck meets the body. Sometimes if it is a rock mix, I'll use a dynamic mic to get more meat out of it, or if it is a sparse track or just GnG, I'll use a large diaphragm condenser even further away. Sometimes, if I don't know where the track is going, I'll record a second mic somewhere else in the room for ambiance. I love the UAD LA2A on acoustic for compression. EQ and reverb always vary depending on the track and context.

What you might try is finding a spot in the room where it sounds good to you and then put a mic next to your ears.

Ken

I record in a small room I've turned into a studio.. Using Pro Tools DIGI 002

>>I love the UAD LA2A on acoustic for compression
It this a free plug in? If so can you direct me where to find it and explain it a little please?

Eddie

From what you just said, I can think of two things right off the bat.

First, I don't like using a condenser mic for recording acoustic guitar. There will be arguments about this. But if that's all you have, then you can EQ the smoothness back in and pull down all the finger zipping on the strings, which becomes really exaggerated. I just think it's a pain to have to EQ your sound when all you need are a couple SM58s and not have to touch the EQ, accept to maybe roll off the lows or roll on the highs. Just my opinion of course.

Second, I like to use 2 mics on my acoustic. 1 at about the 14th fret set about 6 inches away, and 1 in front of the sound hole about a foot away.

Then mix the 2 tracks to taste. The mic on the frets will be your brightness and the mic on the hole will be the low tones and richness. If mixed correctly, it will sound very close to what your ears normally hear.

Make the best of what you have, and if all you have is the one mic, try different positions and distances to get it closer to what you want it to sound like. Ken says something like "garbage in, garbage out" and that totally applies here. Be concerned more about capturing the best sound then in re-shaping a goofy one later.

Note: I still have a lot to learn about this myself, but pay good attention to those guys-they know their noodles.

Billy's Little Trip wrote:From what you just said, I can think of two things right off the bat.

First, I don't like using a condenser mic for recording acoustic guitar. There will be arguments about this.

Yes, because you are wrong!

Billy's Little Trip wrote: Second, I like to use 2 mics on my acoustic. 1 at about the 14th fret set about 6 inches away, and 1 in front of the sound hole about a foot away.

Then mix the 2 tracks to taste. The mic on the frets will be your brightness and the mic on the hole will be the low tones and richness. If mixed correctly, it will sound very close to what your ears normally hear.

This is solid advice, especially if there is any soloing or if the rhythm is 'lick happy'...wait... thats not coming out like I meant for it to. I just mean if there is a lot of action from your fingering hand... Ok, I'm just gonna stop now.

You know, after reading what Ken said about the condenser mic placed at a good distance, maybe my problem with condensers for acoustic is that I've always tried using them the same as I've always used my dynamic cardioid mics. I'll try again the next time I record my acoustic. But I'm getting to that point in my life where I stick to what I know works for me. But I also don't want to be one of those guys that that doesn't give new things a fair chance.

As far as the UAD LA2A, I agree. Ken turned me onto the Modern Suite vst plug-ins about a year ago and I've been using them ever since. They perform in a very classic way that I'm comfortable with. Plus they have some pretty wild plugs, like the "illusionater".

I just tried to find a link to the free Modern VSTs and all the links seem to be dead, sorry.

Well.. I only have one mic and won't have time this week to get a second. I suppose I could record it twice with the one mic setup in two different areas each time?

What mic do you have?

Why don't you post a raw and processed guitar track for us to hear?

Ken

halen99 wrote:Well.. I only have one mic and won't have time this week to get a second. I suppose I could record it twice with the one mic setup in two different areas each time?

You won't achieve the effect we are describing.

IF you did do that, you might get an interesting sound, but you would have to be right in time with the original recording for it sound really good. (thats my theory anyways)

One mic? If its unidirectional, just point it at a 45 degree angle towards the whole in the guitar and as close as you can without the risk of hitting it while strumming.

IF it is a condenser, put it where Ken said... I think it was Ken. Where the neck meets body. Good rich sound right there.

No one said it yet, and I'm no audio engineer, but I think it's important:

Keep the Guitar Still.

It's hard for me to remember, and even harder for me to do, so it's my mantra while I'm recording. If you have 1 mic, moving around will change the dynamics and the timbre of the guitar on the recording. If you're using 2 mics (which really does make a better recording), moving around makes all sorts of phase effects happen, which kind of sucks.

Also, in my experience (reiterating Hoblit's point), place the mic in front of the soundhole but not directly at the hole. Angle it toward the body for a deeper sound, angle it at the fretboard for a shiny sound. Point it at the hole to make an ugly, bassy, woofy, boomy noise that will garner you negative 1 songfight votes.

Note: I happily concede these points to anyone who makes better recordings than I do.

Hoblit wrote:

Billy's Little Trip wrote:From what you just said, I can think of two things right off the bat.

First, I don't like using a condenser mic for recording acoustic guitar. There will be arguments about this.

Yes, because you are wrong!

This made me laugh because when I was typing it, I said to myself, "I bet Hoblit will disagree whether he agrees or not".

I think http://www.karmamics.com typically has good recording info, so I checked out their site and found this:

While the acoustic guitar remains one of the most simple instruments by design, it also remains one of the hardest to get a great sound on in the studio.

Rule #1 A condenser mic will almost always sound better than a dynamic mic for acoustic guitars.

Rule #2 New strings will always sound better for recording than old.

Rule #3 Skinny strings sound brighter than fat ones.

Rule #4 The sound you get has a great deal to do with the dynamics of the player.

Rule #5 Get down on your knees and position your ear as if it were the microphone while somebody else is playing the guitar. Move your ear around to find "sweet spots". You'll learn more from that, than you will by reading this. Don't try it with an electric guitar!

Rule #6 If you have somebody that is assisting you on the session, have them move the mic around what you think will be the sweet spot while the player is practicing the part he or she is about to lay down. Have your assistant wear headphones so you can communicate with him or her while the moving of the mic is taking place.

Rule #7 A limiter/compressor will almost always help you get a better sound.

Let's get right to it. If the sound you want to get is a country/pop, strummed sound similar to the Eagles "Lyin' Eyes", here's the formula: Place the microphone about 6 to 8 inches from the guitar's sound hole, but angle the mic toward the area where the fretboard and the sound hole meet. If you point the mic directly into the sound hole, it will be very full - probably much too full, and very boomy. Use a compressor/limiter to knock down any peaks (3:1 ratio), and set the threshold a little lower to give it a slightly "squashed" or tighter sound. Set the threshold higher to just limit the peaks and give a more open sound. You may need to eq out some boominess. If so, try rolling off some bottom (100Hz), or cutting a couple of db at 300Hz. To add some "silk" on the top end, try something in the 8-10K range, but be careful, too much will add noise to the track. Positioning the mic so it angles toward the pick will give more attack - less sweetness.

For that John Mellencamp sound, try medium gauge strings, a little more compression, and try adding a little eq around the mids - lets say 700Hz to 1.2KHz. That will give you a sound that is a little more "woodsy" (a highly technical term).

Melissa Etheridge? Try this on for size. Use a guitar with a built-in pick up and a microphone to boot. You will undoubtedly get some phase anomalies, but that's part of the sound. Experiment with moving the mic closer and farther. That will affect the phase relationship of the two sound sources. Sooner or later, you'll hit on something that will put a smile on your face. You can pan the two signals left and right to get a broad stereo sound, but make sure that if you check the sound in mono, that the signal remains fairly well intact.

Gut string or classical guitar? Piece of cake. Once again, use a condenser mic, but place it about ten inches away from the guitar. As a matter of fact, try placing it about 3 to 4 inches up the neck, but aim it at the players picking fingers. This angle will reduce boominess by virtue of the mic's cardioid polar pattern producing a natural roll off when it's aimed off-axis, while simultaneously delivering the attack of the fingers. Try and say that three times in a row! The added distance will pick up some of the guitar body's resonance. A compressor/limiter is a must for this case because of unexpected peaks. A 4:1 ratio is a good place to start, but set the threshold fairly high so that the most of the guitar's natural dynamics are left intact.

Well, according to the "entire world", I need to start using condenser mics on my acoustic recording, or I'm a douche.
I think I just need to get some better quality condenser mics, I guess.

This is a really helpful thread. You guys are all so smart.

Billy's Little Trip wrote:

Hoblit wrote:

Billy's Little Trip wrote:From what you just said, I can think of two things right off the bat.

First, I don't like using a condenser mic for recording acoustic guitar. There will be arguments about this.

Yes, because you are wrong!

This made me laugh because when I was typing it, I said to myself, "I bet Hoblit will disagree whether he agrees or not".

Ha, yeah. I was also being vague and without detail in that reply to that specific part of your post for the comic effect.

Hoblit wrote:IF it is a condenser, put it where Ken said... I think it was Ken. Where the neck meets body. Good rich sound right there.

Would this also work for a Stairway To Heaven - type song where there are a lot of notes and very few chords? Or is there a better way to record that?

himynameisntmark wrote:

Hoblit wrote:IF it is a condenser, put it where Ken said... I think it was Ken. Where the neck meets body. Good rich sound right there.

Would this also work for a Stairway To Heaven - type song where there are a lot of notes and very few chords? Or is there a better way to record that?

I imagine that you'd still want to place the mic there. It doesn't matter that only one string or two strings are being played at a time, its how those strings sound. Ideally you'd want to the two mic deal if you want to get all the sliding and fingering noises to add to the intimacy of the track. (I'm not even trying)

I think my acoustics turned out pretty decent his week (Client #9). I used this pair (recommended to me by Ken some time ago:

http://tiny.cc/7XiLb

with the little one at the 12th fret and the big one 6 inches from the sound hole. I also double tracked it - but each track sounded pretty good. I'd be happy to export a single track if you'd like to hear it. I also have a decent guitar, which is, of course, where the acoustic guitar sound starts - if you're micing a Rogue it'll still sound like a Rogue, I think.

Ross wrote:I think my acoustics turned out pretty decent his week (Client #9). I used this pair (recommended to me by Ken some time ago:

http://tiny.cc/7XiLb

with the little one at the 12th fret and the big one 6 inches from the sound hole. I also double tracked it - but each track sounded pretty good. I'd be happy to export a single track if you'd like to hear it. I also have a decent guitar, which is, of course, where the acoustic guitar sound starts - if you're micing a Rogue it'll still sound like a Rogue, I think.

It does sound really good, Ross. Actually I really like the whole song. Really nice mix too, but the electric guitar could use a bit of warming up, or dare I say, a bit of muddiness to soften the edges.

Thanks for the tips. I think it helped. It also helps if you don't suck at playing which I have some issues with. At any rate thanks again for your help on last weeks entry.

Eddie

ken wrote:Science...

Wow. I think I'm going to start giving audio engineering lessons, then charge $100/hr to make people sit down and read Ken's posts.