The Song Fight Bulletin Board

Got this today in the mail, it came to the email I have on my website, but it could've been crawled by bot just as well as a human.

HI...This is Jojo with Bryan Farrish Radio Promotion. I ran into your website and wanted to introduce myself. I'm not sure if we have talked in the past but we're an independent radio promotion company based in Los Angeles. We specialize in college & commercial radio and we service about 1000 US & Canadian stations nationwide. We just celebrated our 10 year anniversary and recently branched out into booking. In the last issues of CMJ this year, we had an artist that was #1 most added. We also just recently worked with an indie project that debuted on Billboard's Singles Chart. We currently have 2 artists on the top 20 FMQB Charts as well.

Have you taken your current project to radio and are you touring at all? Let me know if we could be of any help as far as radio & booking or if you'd like more info on our radio promotion packages. I'd like to request a copy of your current release.

Anybody ever get one? They're obviously trying to sell something but the Google shows that the company seems to be legit. Anyone used their services?

YUP.

Whats funny is it came my Bread Box Studios At G Mail. So at first I replied to 'him' inquiring which artist he was interested in assuming he clicked on it at some various point on the web posted by somebody I may have recorded.

Now I see that its just spam targeted at us. He/they probably followed the link in my signature and found that contact email.

Probably somehow harvested your email using this board as a channel to your email wherehaveyous.

No word on services. Just got the email like you.

Heh, you'd think they'd be telling you the names of their "artists", who are getting all this recognition.

Rabid Garfunkel wrote:Heh, you'd think they'd be telling you the names of their "artists", who are getting all this recognition.

I thought that too but then I realized that it might not even matter if they did. Even if they are legitimate would their artist still be all that popular? The market is saturated so having an artist on the radio somewhere any given time isn't really all that spectacular of a feat. So a name drop might work against them at the risk of recipient never having heard of said artist. That and what if the band is really good, then it might be intimidating, what if the band is really bad, then you might get the impression that this service will represent any old piece of crap...and then your back at square one.

Warning: this is a post about my job.

I'm in charge of deciding what new music gets made available to DJs and what doesn't. Some stations mandate that DJs play so much new music, or have a high rotation, a medium rotation, and a low rotation section. We're freeform, so DJs at KUOI can play as much or as little new music as they care to.

On any given day I receive between four and forty CDs in the mail. Being a full-time student, I spend rather less than forty hours a week listening to CDs at work, and consequently I don't get a chance to listen to everything. Sometimes, labels and artists will hire an inbetween to talk to me, a radio promoter. Promoters develop reputations, and some put out more good records more consistently than others do. Terrorbird Media is the one that I'll listen to pretty much everything they send. Fanatic, Team Clermont, AAM, and Pirate have good stuff often; Planetary, Vitriol, and SPECTRE have some good stuff regularly; Tinderbox and Bryan Farrish--I'd use diplomatic language here, but instead I'll be frank. I would love a world where Tinderbox and Bryan Farrish stopped sending me CDs. They're all about a paycheck, not about the quality of music and any kind of dedication to supporting it. Do not do any business with them. I know other music directors at other stations, and I can tell you my feelings are not unique, and their artists do not do well in, at least, college radio.

Let me also note that I've talked with all of the other promoters I've listed, including having met many of them at SXSW, but I don't believe I've ever received a call in my year on the job from Bryan Farrish Radio Promotion. Tinderbox calls, weekly, though I've never had any good news for them, but Bryan Farrish does not.

The flip side of Marcus' post is that these guys do exist and they apparently do send out your CDs.

Yeah, but, y'know, pay me enough money and I'll mail out CDs for you as well. Won't do you any good of course, and you may have more success if you just mail them yourself, but if you're determined to throw money around...

(actually, I won't mail CDs out for anyone, but hopefully my point is made)

Your point is taken. Sort of. Because you won't send out the CDs, and because it is work to dig up all of the places where you might send them. Of course these guys are operating a business, but so is the local pub, and I have no beef with THEM. There's nothing wrong for paying experts to do what you don't have the time or expertise to do, if it is important to you. From Marcus's post, however, it appears that these guys use the shotgun approach, and music directors have gotten to know that their signal to noise ratio is too low to be of much use.

Personally, I prefer to go to the pub where the owner is in it because he gets a kick out of the biz, not because he sees every punter as another easy buck.

Thanks, Marcus! Good to get your perspective/experience on/with this.

Rabid Garfunkel wrote:Thanks, Marcus! Good to get your perspective/experience on/with this.

Let me second this. It actually confirmed some of my interpretations of the email illustrated right there in my post.

Absolutely. I did not intend to diminish Marcus' contribution with my "flip side" post. His insights are very valuable.

SPUD

Yeah, the punchline I want to deliver here is that if you're interested in doing a college radio promotional blitz, you can do better. There are lists here and there for musicians to mail CDs out themselves, but what a promoter does is lend their reputation to a project, use their established rapports with radio as leverage, and call radio every week for 4-8 weeks to ask how a CD is doing, and then compile that stuff into a report for the musician. Basically, the CMJ charts aren't accidental. A good CD plus leverage means chart performance, and if something enters the top 50 then promoters can push for it to enter the top 20, top 10, top 5... I don't know what CD they got in the most-added, but that they didn't mention what it was is suspect to me. Hoblit's point about not disclosing their clients is off the mark. Literally every other promoter's website will have a list of current clients and, on their page to prospective clients, they'll have a list of past artists they've worked with (and helped to get off the ground.)

http://spectremusic.com/ has a list of tour dates and current projects, and their About page details that they've promoted Air, Wilco, Built to Spill, DJ Shadow, M.I.A., Portishead, The Avalanches, etc.

http://fanaticpromotion.com/ has current projects, and mentions they've promoted Sufjan, Decemberists, Jesse Sykes, Octopus Project, Architecture in Helsinki, Go! Team, etc.

http://teamclermont.com/index_site.html has current projects, tour dates, etc.

http://www.terrorbird.com/ has a roster, tour dates, news, about, etc.

http://www.radio-media.com/ (Bryan Farrish's website, despite the generic URL) has pages and pages of advertising, detailing why you should use Bryan Farrish (or how interning with Bryan Farrish will get you a leg-up in the business). No tour dates, no list of previously successful releases, no list of current projects. This isn't the first time I've heard of Bryan Farrish cold calling. It's close to a scam. All the projects I've seen come in are amateur and terrible, usually gospel, Christian, funk, other bullshit from old people--the kind of people that would respond to a cold call and pay someone a few hundred dollars because they think it'll get them some level of success.

If you want to make inroads in college radio, here's my advice, in brief: don't produce shitty music, don't have high expectations, prepare for a ton of work (blogs, press, radio), don't be overly pushy, have a pressed CD. With the number of CDs that comes in in a week I have to decide what gets my attention and what doesn't. If there's reviews from the Stranger, Three Imaginary Girls, Village Voice, Pitchfork, I'm more inclined to check something out. If the accompanying press release doesn't have information on which songs have swear words, if it doesn't take the music seriously, if it sounds shitty, I'm less likely to check it out. But my specific advice to, say, Song Fight musicians: ask yourself, what do you want to do with your music? What are your aspirations? How much time and money and effort are you willing to put into it?

I write music for fun, and have a fun time doing it, and I've met a lot of great friends through it. The manager of college radio at Warner Brothers recently released a CD. He's a former music director and station manager at a college radio station. For Warner Brothers releases, he employs some of the same promoters I've just mentioned. For his own CD--pleasant, fingerpicked acoustic guitar stuff--he's sent it out through Team Clermont. He gigs in LA, but his CD isn't on Warner, or Sub Pop, or anything else: it's a self-released, pressed CD.

This is all pretty enlightening, I had no intention of using B.Farrish or any other agent, I was just curious. Still, I'm glad I asked because I had heard a lot of the stuff mkilly said, but it's nice to hear from someone who actually does it, and their personal opinions on it. I think BLT posted a similar question a few months ago from another outfit that did basically the same thing. The consensus was they were a legit business who did what they said, but not necessarily with concrete results.

I don't get to respond too much to posts, and this will probably be my only one, but just to clear up some stuff:


>Now I see that its just spam targeted at us.
>

You are a musician, and the email is about promoting musicians. No, you did not ask to get it.


>He/they probably followed the link in my signature and found that contact email.
>

What does it matter how we found you?


>you'd think they'd be telling you the names of their "artists", who are getting all
>this recognition.

No, not in an intro email. And we don't post them on the site, either, because we don't have an in-house web person to keep it updated (you'll notice everything on the site is non-changing info that does not need to be updated.)


>Even if they are legitimate would their artist still be all that popular?
>

This is correct. Since we don't work label acts, most people would not have heard of them. Even if they were well known in NY, you would not have heard of them in LA. We work independent, unknown, unsigned acts who are paying for things by themselves. This is most artists in the world, by the way. In other words, we are focusing on promoting artists that are currently getting no help from labels. That is why we have salespeople... the salesperson's only job is to spend time with the artist and educate them on how things work. All the other promoters that are mentioned in the above posts have label clients, meaning that when they do get hired by an unknown artist with no label, no shows, no sales, no press, etc., then this artist is going to fall to the bottom of that promoter's priority list. You just don't put "Unsupported Indie Artist" in a higher priority than your artist from Universal. At least, not if you want more business from Universal. Remember, everyone see the priority lists. Of course, those promoters absolutely can't tell an artist that they'll be a lesser priority, because that artist would never hire them.


>They're all about a paycheck
>

Please mention which of the above listed promoters are working for free. While you are at it, please mention which staff person(s) (not interns) at any major or mid size label that is working for free.


>not about the quality of music
>

In whose opinion? And how does this opinion affect the opinions of the 2,000 college music people we contact each week in all seven CMJ and Chartattack charts (and other niche charts)?


>and any kind of dedication to supporting it.
>

Please tell me how a minimum of eight weeks of promotion, with between two and four dedicated college-only promoters (depending on how busy we are), is not "supporting" it. Plus the option of expanding to commercial specialty, and commercial regular rotation.


>I know other music directors at other stations
>

So do we.


>and I can tell you my feelings are not unique
>

You probably do have some folks that think like you.


>and their artists do not do well in, at least, college radio.
>

Please state which artist feels that he/she did not do "well", and also what your definition of "well" is. Keep in mind that your opinion of how well an artist did is not important to that artist; that artist only cares about how well THEY think they did. Out of over 700 artists in the last ten years, an awful lot of them felt they did really good.


>I don't believe I've ever received a call in my year on the job
>

That's because college folks are most easily reached by email. If we get busy we'll add a phone person, especially if the artist is also doing commercial specialty. But email gives you much better quotes from MD's (just copy and paste) that the artist can use in their other marketing. And even though you yourself may like to get calls, many non-comm MD's and hosts do not. This is opposite of commercial, where calls dominate over emails. And keep in mind that emails still need to be operated by a human (and I'm not counting any mass emails.)


>I don't know what CD they got in the most-added, but that they didn't mention what
>it was is suspect to me. Hoblit's point about not disclosing their clients is off the
>mark.

See above.


>Literally every other promoter's website will have a list of current clients and,
>on their page to prospective clients, they'll have a list of past artists they've worked
>with (and helped to get off the ground.)

Every other promoter, at least those listed above, does non-comm only (and maybe specialty). These campaigns are purchased more by younger people who are swayed almost exclusively by "big names that they've heard of". Since we are the only one of those listed above that do not work with labels, then by definition an indie band somewhere in the world would not have heard of ours. A $2500 campaign is not enough to make an artist a "well known name that people across the country have heard of". It's just a campaign to give them a tool to use for other music business purposes.


>Bryan Farrish's website, despite the generic URL) has pages and pages of advertising
>

Please show me the paid advertising that someone hacked onto our site, and I'll remove it.


>This isn't the first time I've heard of Bryan Farrish cold calling.
>

Correct. Been contacting musicians for ten years.


>It's close to a scam
>

Please state what information you have that an artist hired us for a service (example: contacting hip hop MD's at CMJ Hip Hop reporting stations for 8 weeks, with weekly reports) for an agreed upon cost (for example $2500), and did not receive said service. You can email this information to airplay@radio-media.com, or call us, and we will pursue.


>For Warner Brothers releases, he employs some of the same promoters
>I've just mentioned.

Makes my point above.


>but not necessarily with concrete results.
>

Who did you contact here (or which client did you contact) to obtain said results? As said above we don't post weekly changing results or lists.


Bryan
310-998-8305

bryanfarrish wrote:Keep in mind that your opinion of how well an artist did is not important to that artist; that artist only cares about how well THEY think they did. Out of over 700 artists in the last ten years, an awful lot of them felt they did really good.

This is kind of a weird thing to say. It sounds like you're saying that the artist's (possibly incorrect) feelings about how well they did are the only important factor. I think if I were an artist submitting music via a promotion service, that I would want to have hard statistics on how much benefit I gained from that service, and be able to compare those statistics to other people's services. Did I put my money to good use, or could they have done more with it, but didn't? My feelings aren't that helpful.
-bill

I dunno y'all. The guy came to the board and posted a lengthy reply to everybody's comments. It was a defensive reply, but he is kinda being attacked after all. He did have it coming, and you are all right to assume he's never going to see anything you say. But then he shows up-- that little touch of personal attention points to the (however slight) possibility that it's more than yet another starving-artist pageview/entry fee ripoff ploy.

Brian, in our defense, almost everyone on this forum has suffered endless pleas for attention for sites purporting to make us rich and famous from our music. Every single one has been if not a scam then just a bullshit ploy to fool music fans and musicians into thinking they're getting something for nothing. It takes a lot of effort to submit music, upload files, start publicizing your presence somewhere, only to find there's absolutely nothing in it for you. It's frustrating and discouraging and eventually generates a lot of ill-will towards any music start-up.

Web 2.0 has made the odds of success (as in, being able to earn a living) in the music business not one bit shorter.

Please forgive the Song Fight community for being gun shy. Please note that this is not any kind of endorsement of you or your service. Song Fight community, please continue being gun shy-- I think it's the appropriate response to this facet of the Internet.

JB

Based on my experience in public radio (similar to Marcus but earlier in history) I'd say that most of the folks here are not at the stage where Mr. Farrish's services would be a good investment. Most won't ever be. I may have dreaded all the phone calls from perky young women who wanted to know how often we were playing the new Anal Cunt album on the Jazz hour (hint: light rotation), but, then, it's more than a decade later and I still remember the band!

Most radio stations, the Music Director has some influence over what actually gets played. I never had much, but I knew what almost all the DJs liked and I could point out new stuff that they might be interested in... if I knew about it. These sort of services can work! I wouldn't put any money into it until you've got a record deal with someone you aren't already related to, or friends with, but that is just me.

hey bryan, i've sent you several emails and left several voice messages in your office's general mailbox because there is no direct line to you.

i'd appreciate a call to discuss the educated consumers tour promotion when you have time.

brett or jojo can give you my number, i'd rather not post it on here for obvious reasons.

peace
cole

Yeah, jb, you're right. And about Bryan's reply: I can of course only speak with regards to non-commercial, college radio, but I stand by what I've written.

for Markus...an opinion is an opinion. Who are you say that an artist's music shouldnt be promoted? If you think it is bad material, another station may not? I honestly think some of the SPECIFICALLY College Radio MDs have sticks up their #@A% thinking they are higher than GOD? college radio is supposed to support indie artists and not tag along what "majors" put out. How are indies ever gonna get their foot in the door?

I am also a musician myself u can even call me a starving artist..unfortunately was never able to afford promotion but I know that every song that gets put out on radio..we know these songs because there was mulah behind it. Marketing & Promotion is everything...u dont just see major label artists everywhere because they are under major labels...we dont realize that they put millions of dollars behind their artists..soemthing we CANNOT do.

Im not gonna sit here and put down promoters I PERSONALLY HAVE NOT WORKED with..just because I am an angry musician with no money. So if you guys havent actually worked with them...i think maybe u should zip it. Also..I did attempt to call these "promoters" and they are pricey but some are very very fake...I know they are all sales people but I also know I cannot get the top stations such as NY LA and for them to say they can get me on those big stations, is BS...im not that naive. Bryan Farrish people were the really the only ones that broke it down for me but i gotta say still wasnt able to afford ..

if u have no money college is your only way out..but still some of these college MDs (not naming any Markus) are very stuck up thinking they work for Clearchannel when in reality they are just kids that go to community college that happen to take that broadcasting class. Hmmm what happens when they actually reach the real world of commercial radio??? When they are actually being TOLD what to play? I bet they'll keep their mouths shut huh...all for the money! So again for Markus...enjoy your College Radio MD days while youre able to play what u can (not saying you'll ever pass for commercial radio with that attitude)

Bryan, I will admit the possibility that I am off base with this accusation, but-- please refrain from sending clients, prospective or otherwise, to our message board to defend your service. I'm pretty sure no one has really been offensive to you so far and Tirkshaq1's posts are NOT making either of you any friends.

Tirkshaq1, you are welcome here, but your first two posts are not in line with an attempt to become part of this community. You're free to say what you want, but you should really look around and possibly participate in songfight.org before posting further. We encourage musicians, we offer no services, we make music for the love of it and most of us are not trying to make a career out of our musical efforts. Therefore this may not be the best place to advertise, and it is CERTAINLY not the best place to accuse anyone of bitterness or jealousy because of a failure to make it-- even if it's true.

If you have something to say about my music, fine, but if you just want to complain because I am mistrustful of a promoter on the Internet, please take your desperation somewhere else.

JB
Site Admin
songfight.org
songfight.net