ken wrote:The SM58 is a great live vocal mic.
The SP B1 is a decent studio mic.
Which would you say is better in a studio environment? My room has a nasty ring to it - the acoustics are definitely not made for recording. Because of this, would you suggest a dynamic over a condenser, in order to avoid picking up unwanted background noise?
ken wrote:Another thing to consider is that the same mic will sound totally different with a new preamp. Have you thought about an ART Tube MP or M-Audio AudioBuddy?
I hope I don't sound dumb for asking this, but ... what is a preamp, and what does it do?
By the way Reist, the bridge in my song this week was kind of a "gift" to you. I really wanted to sing through the flute at the same time a là Ian Anderson, but I couldn't do it. (I used to be able to!) I hope you thought it was funny (if you've heard it).
A preamp is a device which takes a mic-level signal and raises it to line-level. When you plug your mic into the XLR inputs on the back of your recorder, the first thing it goes through is a preamp, the "onboard preamp" in the AW1600.
If you had an external preamp, you would plug the mic into that, and then plug the output of the preamp into a line in on your recorder. The assumption is that an external preamp can be better than the internal preamps that come with your deck, and thus sound better. For people who are recording through a soundblaster sound card, this would almost always be true; in your case, it might or might not make an audible difference.
Most external pres provide phantom power, but I'm sure your AW1600 does too, so that's not an issue here (when I was recording on a Tascam 388, it did NOT have phantom power, so I had to come up with some way of providing it; an external pre would have done that).
In your case, I would guess that you'll get more bang for your buck by putting all the money into a mic, especially if you're thinking in terms of only a couple hundred dollars to spend. At some point, you may decide that ONE really nice preamp is a good investment, especially if you tend to record stuff one track at a time...
Charles (KA)
"...one does not write in dactylic hexameter purely by accident..." - poetic designs
Reïst wrote:Which would you say is better in a studio environment? My room has a nasty ring to it - the acoustics are definitely not made for recording. Because of this, would you suggest a dynamic over a condenser, in order to avoid picking up unwanted background noise?
Well, that is a different problem now isn't it? Maybe you are better off spending a little bit of money to treat your room instead. You really need some broadband absorption, diffusion, and bass trapping. Hard to say which to start with or what you could really get for $100. I like GIK panels for bass trapping. You want to use a mic with a tight pick up pattern. (http://www.crownaudio.com/mic_web/tips/mictip2.htm)
Reïst wrote:I hope I don't sound dumb for asking this, but ... what is a preamp, and what does it do?
A microphone preamp brings the level of your microphone up to line level so that you can record it. I'm sure your Yamaha unit has them built in, but you may get an improved sound by using an extremal preamp.
Where is your money best spent? It is hard to say, but I suggest you treat your room first as everything you record there will benefit.
Ken
Ken's Super Duper Band 'n Stuff - Berkeley Social Scene - Tiny Robots - Seamus Collective - Semolina Pilchards - Cutie Pies - Explino! - Bravo Bros. - 2 from 14 - and more!
i would just like to remind everyone that Ken eats kittens - blue lang
frankie big face wrote:By the way Reist, the bridge in my song this week was kind of a "gift" to you. I really wanted to sing through the flute at the same time a là Ian Anderson, but I couldn't do it. (I used to be able to!) I hope you thought it was funny (if you've heard it).
It definitely gave me a chuckle. The flute was well-played too - I didn't know you could play the flute! I do hope you have a flower suit as well ...
Maybe the next instrument I learn should be flute. It could be quite fun.
Hmmm. Preamp, room treatment or new mic? Decisions, decisions decisions. I guess I'll think this through for a few days, and I guess I'll make my choice within the week.
frankie big face wrote:By the way Reist, the bridge in my song this week was kind of a "gift" to you. I really wanted to sing through the flute at the same time a là Ian Anderson, but I couldn't do it. (I used to be able to!) I hope you thought it was funny (if you've heard it).
It definitely gave me a chuckle. The flute was well-played too - I didn't know you could play the flute! I do hope you have a flower suit as well ...
Flower suit - wasn't that Peter Gabriel?
The flute reminded me more of early Chicago than Jethro Tull, by the way. I a good way.
Reïst wrote:Hmmm. Preamp, room treatment or new mic? Decisions, decisions decisions. I guess I'll think this through for a few days, and I guess I'll make my choice within the week.
Forget the room treatment (no offense Ken) and get a good condenser mic for recording. Just build one of those boxes JB made the thread about if you're having room issues. It feels weird singing into a box, but it actually works pretty well. You don't really seem to have problems getting a good sound when recording other acoustic instruments (like drums)--it's just the vox thing, right? I don't think there's really a substitute for a good mic.
frankie big face wrote:By the way Reist, the bridge in my song this week was kind of a "gift" to you. I really wanted to sing through the flute at the same time a là Ian Anderson, but I couldn't do it. (I used to be able to!) I hope you thought it was funny (if you've heard it).
It definitely gave me a chuckle. The flute was well-played too - I didn't know you could play the flute! I do hope you have a flower suit as well ...
Flower suit - wasn't that Peter Gabriel?
Yeah, I guess I might have come off sounding a bit dumb with that joke - I know Anderson is Jethro Tull, but I figured the joke in the song was more around the concept of prog as a whole, so I threw in a Genesis/Gabriel joke. Just to clear that up so I don't sound like a total moron.
I'll throw in my two cents on the mic question and also recommend the Studio Projects B1. I use it for everything. Andrew, I'm sure that you're familiar with my recordings with the horns and everything and I usually record all that in my garage with a washing machine going some of the time and a refrigerator running. It has a cardioid pattern so as long as it is pointed it the right way I don't really have any problem with excess ambient noise.
"Writing about music is like dancing about architecture" -Unknown
"Seems to me this is the point of Songfight" - Max The Cat
Reïst wrote:[
Yeah, I guess I might have come off sounding a bit dumb with that joke - I know Anderson is Jethro Tull, but I figured the joke in the song was more around the concept of prog as a whole, so I threw in a Genesis/Gabriel joke. Just to clear that up so I don't sound like a total moron.
I didn't mean ti that way. I was just having fun getting in on the conversation. BTW - if you've never seen the Tull Isle of Wight from like 70 or 71 - it's amazing.
Ross wrote:Andrew - what about spending a couple hundred on a squire P-bass?
Yes.
EDIT: I'd try some different vocal processing before I bought a new mic, if I were you. Experimenting with the compressors/eqs you already have is free; a new mic is not.
Andrew, are you doing all the basic stuff? Using a pop screen/wind filter, keeping ~6" from the mic, making sure not to have too huge a volume range when you sing, boosting the gain on the input enough but not too much, normalizing the vocal track, applying a high pass EQ to it to cut the very low frequencies, compressing it, making sure the vocals aren't crowded in terms of how things are panned, making sure the vocals aren't being crowded in their frequency range, adding a touch of reverb, etc.? None of these things are "rules" by any stretch of the imagination, and I'm definitely not an expert, so your mileage may vary with them.
Preface: I found it easy to pick out the few bad things in a song this week, so generally, even the songs I've criticised most (and I think I may have been overly critical) were very good.
I starred everything on my music player as I went through and they're ordered accordingly, though there is no order within each star group.
3 Stars:
Ross Durand - Decent song, not much too say really, I suppose it's not really my cup of tea. Attacking the church is a bit fish-in-barrel these days, but it has a nice sentiment.
Octothorpe - I like this, it makes me think of The Bonzo Dog Doo-Dah Band, eccentric! The vocals at the very start are too quiet but once the second voice comes in it's fine. The weird backwards chipmunk stuff is not my cup of tea, but the song is classy anyway.
15-16 Puzzle - This is a really interesting song, certainly standout. Not quite sure if I like it or not. The grumbly bass is cool and the song really achieves a spooky uneasy vibe.
Andrew Reïst - A bit dissapointed with the backwards-ness, it feels a little tacked on and doesn't add much to the song, but you said you had some problems with hardware etc, so forgiveable I guess. It's got a good structure and your voice is not terrible, though I'll ditto what other people said about that and specifically the way you sing some oarts (or the way your mic picks them up) seems to cut off which makes it a bit jolty and stacatto.
Cock - This is cool, it sounds very coherent, though it gets a little boring because it's quite repetitive. The lyrics don't seem to say much, kind of indistinct lamenting. I think I hear a little twinkling piano now and then, I would have liked that a bit louder, to spice it up a bit.
Frankie Big Face - Boom! Here we go! Nice rock vibe going on here, good stuff. I think the lyrics could be a bit less reverby, it would make them easier to make out, but it does bring a good style. The pan-pipe breakdown is also a bit of a gamble.
Glenn and Rachael - Hmmm, backwards drums, interesting idea though it seems like a bit of a cop-out on the challenge, the fact that the verses work just as well (better maybe) with the normal drums makes it seem like you tried just to go for the least obtrusive backwards-ness you could get. Good song in a dozen other ways though.
The John Benjamin Band - A nice solid song, good variety keeps it interesting. Limited backwards-ness puts the song down for me, I prefer when it's properly worked into the song.
4 Stars:
Tex Beaumont & The Dirty Hearts - Nice way of incorporating the challenge with the lyrics, . Great guitar riffs throughout too. Great structure, stays interesting despite being +4 minutes.
Paco del Stinko - A nice creepy song here. I like the chorus, something in it makes it very listenable. The whole song is good really, nice bass, good vocals, catchy guitar.
King Arthur - This is pretty fun, great lyrics and delivery on them make the song, it could have been a bit dull and repetitive otherwise I feel. Interesting idea with the backwards sections in the bridge, I'm not a fan though, I much prefer the backwards guitar that comes in just after.
Jim Tyrrel - Another stonking rock riff, wa-hey! I'm digging the riff and especially the backwards guitar solo. Feels a bit more steady and energetic than some of the other rockers this week.
Bryan Kendal - A nice tuneful ballad, really good use of the backwards guitar too, it's subtle yet really brings a lot to the song. Lovely lyrics too. On the production side there is some clipping which is a shame but not enough to damage the song massively.
Billy's Little Trip - I like the lyrics, a cool approach to the title. Generally good, the chorus is really sound and I like the double vocals.
5 Stars:
The Worldly Self-Assurance - Another stonker. It's nice to have WSA last as I know the list will always end well. Great subtle song, there's so many little bits that go together to make it such quality, every bit has nice things to notice and pick out.
Starfinger - It starts off and I thought woo, it's ridiculous and bombastic. I really like the reed-y synth going on. The backwards section is fantastic, the lyrics are brilliant and the chorus is, well I'm runnig out of superlatives, but I loved it.
Ken Mahru - I was a bit unsure of the backwards instrument, not sure what it is, when I first heard it. This turned out to be one of my favourites this week though. Lovely use of synths, I am a sucker for them. Great energetic structure and performance.
Add - Another excellent one, gets a really good atmosphere going with all the layers and backwards chatter. Slightly eastern feel which is cool.
As a final thought, it was interesting to see 15-16, me and Starfinger all write about cosmetic surgery despite the slightly tenuous link to the title.
adamadamant wrote:The Worldly Self-Assurance - Another stonker. It's nice to have WSA last as I know the list will always end well.
Agreed. I think the same thing every week!
Also, thanks for the nice review.
Ken
Ken's Super Duper Band 'n Stuff - Berkeley Social Scene - Tiny Robots - Seamus Collective - Semolina Pilchards - Cutie Pies - Explino! - Bravo Bros. - 2 from 14 - and more!
i would just like to remind everyone that Ken eats kittens - blue lang
adamadamant wrote:
Glenn and Rachael - Hmmm, backwards drums, interesting idea though it seems like a bit of a cop-out on the challenge
It would be if that was all that I had done.
During the verses: When the drums are backwards, the rhythm guitar parts are normal. When the drums are normal the rhythm guitars are backwards. The background vocals that are repeating the first line should sound a little strange too. That's because I initially recorded them, reversed them, Recorded a phonetic version of what it sounded like backwards and then reversed that. Rachael's 'Ahh' vocals are also backwards.
adamadamant wrote:
Glenn and Rachael - Hmmm, backwards drums, interesting idea though it seems like a bit of a cop-out on the challenge
It would be if that was all that I had done.
During the verses: When the drums are backwards, the rhythm guitar parts are normal. When the drums are normal the rhythm guitars are backwards. The background vocals that are repeating the first line should sound a little strange too. That's because I initially recorded them, reversed them, Recorded a phonetic version of what it sounded like backwards and then reversed that. Rachael's 'Ahh' vocals are also backwards.
I repeat my encouragement: Do not assume you are able to fully comprehend how someone addressed the challenge, based on the limited amount of time you're going to be devoting to listening to that song. In Glenn's case, you missed a bunch of interesting things that merge seamlessly with the recording.
In my case, adamadamant, you are correct in that the backwards stuff is perfunctory-- but you may not have heard every place the backwards lick appears. It's buried in a bunch of places in there, mostly at the end of each chorus providing a chugging slide back down to E, and at the beginning and end it's used to transition into and out of the rock. Nobody said I had to use a minute of backwards stuff, only that it must be "prominent", and in my estimation I met that requirement.
Having expectations set too firmly causes one to be inflexible and make embarrassing assumptions. The simplest thing may have taken ten hours and be incredibly subtle, which takes time to recognize much less appreciate, unless the author wants to call it out to you. I guess this isn't an unsubtle competition, and of course this sort of thing is to be expected, but dammit Glenn deserves more of a benefit of the doubt than that! Maybe I don't, but he sure does.
I'm reminded of some reviews of Ranch on Suede's "Do the Math", a beautiful song, which complained that they didn't address the title-- when they simply don't *say* the title in the lyrics. This isn't patently stupid, like that was (in my opinion), but I'll continue to wish for things to be different and be annoyed when they're not.
jb wrote:I repeat my encouragement: Do not assume you are able to fully comprehend how someone addressed the challenge, based on the limited amount of time you're going to be devoting to listening to that song. In Glenn's case, you missed a bunch of interesting things that merge seamlessly with the recording.
I agree, but like if you totally are not hearing the backwardsness (especially as a judge) what should you do? Sure, you don't just put on your bigboy boots and stomp around and be all "ICAN'THEARTHE CHALLENGEFAILFAIL", but... I dunno. Something. How does the non-optional challenge info get where it needs to get? Because if everyone just starts giving everyone the benefit of the doubt, then I don't really have to do the challenge. (You all still have to, because you're upstanding citizens.)
This particular challenge asked specifically for "Prominant use of backwards recording" not just to use it. If a judge has to listen for it, then it seems to me it would not be "prominant" and should not receive the benefit of the doubt. Personally, I felt all songs met this challenge.
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