The Song Fight Bulletin Board

Here's an easy one, I hope.

We get a lot of comments about Mad Dog's vocals being mixed too low. The problem is that he starts out every verse like Barry White and ends it like James Brown. So, in order to keep from clipping the end of the verses to hell, I have to bring the whole thing down. What will solve this problem, aside from manually changing the volume envelope for the entire track or riding the faders during the mixdown? And I can tell you this, there is nothing I can do to make him stop it. Is compression the answer?

SPUD

Yes, I think compression is the answer. Since we both use N-Track, I can tell you that the built-in Soft Knee compressor does a pretty nice (i.e. transparent) job with vocal compression. Try adjusting the Threshold level until you get a pleasing sound. It'll do wonders for your vocal tracks.

Thanks, Melvin. I will give it a try. Right now. And congratulations on last week's win. You da man. Sorry I outed you earlier on the name thing.

Full dynamics. compression, limiter, and a noise gate couldn't hurt. Something that can be manually fine tuned.
A normalizer can be helpful if the vocals are recorded in different sessions.

Headset mike for consistent mike-to-mouth distance? No, then he'd have to drink his beer through a straw... ...nevermind.

OK, I gave the soft-knee compressor a try, and here's the result:

http://www.songhole.org/octothorpe/musi ... Border.mp3

While I was in there, I backed off the reverb on Mad Dog a bit, and also cleaned up some noise I saw sitting around that I missed before.

SPUD

Big improvement, Spud. The vox are still a little low on my speakers, but I'm listening on laptop speakers, so that might be part of it. Good job!

By the way, Mad Dog reminds me of Lewis Black for some reason.

Big improvement, all around. I've listened to the fight version several times, and this sounds much better.

Lol? I love you and all, Spud, but how long have you been doing recording? Vocal compression is fundamental to modern recording.

The compressor will obv handle the loud bits, and outboard compression is likely the best solution for someone like Maddog. For quieter bits, you might want an expander, hell even a bbe sonic maximizer might be good.

Spud, don't be afraid to ride the faders / edit volume envelopes. In a typical mix I find myself riding the faders on nearly every track, and certainly for the vocals.

Sober wrote:For quieter bits, you might want an expander

Why? The only reason I could imagine using an expander on Maddog is as a gentle noise gate: John does not need more dynamic range.

Sober wrote:hell even a bbe sonic maximizer might be good.

Note for the curious. BBE Sonic Maximizer does two things: it does some tricky frequency-dependent phase shifting (essentially, the lower the incoming frequency, the more it gets delayed. The delay is very short, we're talking microseconds), and it lets you add 'presence' by boosting some truly harsh treble frequency ranges (Well, there's also a generic sort of bass boost knob, but that's not what people buy the thing for). Anyway, the tricky phase shifting tends to accentuate quick transients, but generally does not change the effective (to get technical, the RMS) dynamic range that your ear hears. On vocals, it's essentially just a treble/clarity boost. I keep it in my toolkit, but recommend it with extreme reservation, as there's nothing worse sounding than BBE abuse, imo.

thanks for that note about the BBE sonic maximizer... I got it free with my FireOne that I bought not too long ago... but I really never knew what exactly it did.

Adam! wrote:there's nothing worse sounding than BBE abuse, imo.

I fully expect to be accused of this at some point in the next few months, heh. Now to find a free auto-tune plugin in, and shazam! Instant pop sensation!

Hmmm... I wonder what BBE & auto-tune abuse would sound like on a theremin?

Adam! wrote:Spud, don't be afraid to ride the faders / edit volume envelopes. In a typical mix I find myself riding the faders on nearly every track, and certainly for the vocals.

Oh, I am not afraid. Sometimes I just don't have time. Funny, I end up editing the volume envelopes on most everything BUT the vocals. But that's probably because the rest of the tracks don't need as much tweaking, so it doesn't take as long. The vocals are usually all over the map. OK, maybe I AM afraid...

Sober wrote:Lol? I love you and all, Spud, but how long have you been doing recording? Vocal compression is fundamental to modern recording.

Yeah, way back in the beginning, compression was recommended, and I went out and got a fancy-schmancy piece of DSP hardware for the job. It proved to be too complicated to figure out, and it wasn't my biggest priority at the time, so I moved on to other areas of improving our sound. Somehow, this never got addressed again until now. Can you forgive me?

XOXOXO SPUD

FWIW, I bought a BBE Sonic Maximizer almost a year ago, put it in my rack, and have never used it. If I could figure out how to do proper routing on my Firepod, I'd probably buy the cables and hook it up. (Sober? How do you add outboard fx gear into a Firepod so you can select it as an insert for certain channels?)

Spud wrote:

Sober wrote:Lol? I love you and all, Spud, but how long have you been doing recording? Vocal compression is fundamental to modern recording.

Yeah, way back in the beginning, compression was recommended, and I went out and got a fancy-schmancy piece of DSP hardware for the job. It proved to be too complicated to figure out, and it wasn't my biggest priority at the time, so I moved on to other areas of improving our sound. Somehow, this never got addressed again until now. Can you forgive me?

XOXOXO SPUD

In order to make myself learn how to use compressors, I actually coded one (easier to do in REAPER because you can use scripting language instead of having to write C++ or something). I made one that has "backwards" controls. Instead of setting a threshold and a ratio, you set a threshold and what dB level you want zero dBfs to get squashed down to, and it does the arithmetic and displays the calculated ratio for you. Now I kinda, sorta, finally grok compressors.

Spud wrote:

Adam! wrote:Spud, don't be afraid to ride the faders / edit volume envelopes. In a typical mix I find myself riding the faders on nearly every track, and certainly for the vocals.

Oh, I am not afraid. Sometimes I just don't have time. Funny, I end up editing the volume envelopes on most everything BUT the vocals. But that's probably because the rest of the tracks don't need as much tweaking, so it doesn't take as long. The vocals are usually all over the map. OK, maybe I AM afraid...

I just learned how to do this in Reaper. I could never understand how people "ride the faders" in a DAW. I never knew you could mix down/render a song in real time

Kill Me Sarah wrote:

Spud wrote:

Adam! wrote:Spud, don't be afraid to ride the faders / edit volume envelopes. In a typical mix I find myself riding the faders on nearly every track, and certainly for the vocals.

Oh, I am not afraid. Sometimes I just don't have time. Funny, I end up editing the volume envelopes on most everything BUT the vocals. But that's probably because the rest of the tracks don't need as much tweaking, so it doesn't take as long. The vocals are usually all over the map. OK, maybe I AM afraid...

I just learned how to do this in Reaper. I could never understand how people "ride the faders" in a DAW. I never knew you could mix down/render a song in real time

I still don't know how to do it in real time on the final export mix down, or if it's even possible with Cubase. In Cubse, I just click the little "W" for write, and ride the fader while listening to the song. Then when I'm done, I click the little "R" for read, and it's programmed and rides the fader automatically on that track. Then I do the same on any other tracks that need fading through the song.
I still don't know how to auto pan on the mix down. I just use a separate track panned if I need that.

Billy's Little Trip wrote: I still don't know how to do it in real time on the final export mix down, or if it's even possible with Cubase. In Cubse, I just click the little "W" for write, and ride the fader while listening to the song. Then when I'm done, I click the little "R" for read, and it's programmed and rides the fader automatically on that track. Then I do the same on any other tracks that need fading through the song.
I still don't know how to auto pan on the mix down. I just use a separate track panned if I need that.

I don't know Cubase at all, but in Reaper the option is "Save Live Output to Disk (bounce)". I know most DAWs will bounce individual tracks, so I'm assuming most will also bounce the whole arrangement as well.

Kill Me Sarah wrote: I don't know Cubase at all, but in Reaper the option is "Save Live Output to Disk (bounce)". I know most DAWs will bounce individual tracks, so I'm assuming most will also bounce the whole arrangement as well.

Is there a particular reason to use this approach rather than automating the faders?

jeff robertson wrote:

Kill Me Sarah wrote: I don't know Cubase at all, but in Reaper the option is "Save Live Output to Disk (bounce)". I know most DAWs will bounce individual tracks, so I'm assuming most will also bounce the whole arrangement as well.

Is there a particular reason to use this approach rather than automating the faders?

Just for the sheer challenge!

Alternate Answer: If it's good enough for Frank Black, it's good enough for me.