The Song Fight Bulletin Board

Here's a method and some other tricks I didn't know about:

First tune the bottom E string to a tuning fork or tuning machine.
Next, fret the E string at the tenth fret. This will give you a D. Tune the D string to this note by ear.
Next, fret the D string at the fifth fret. Tune the G string to the D string at the fifth fret.
Now fret the G string at the second fret. This gives you an A. Tune the A string from this note.
Now fret the A string at the second fret. Tune the B string from this note. It will be an octave up.
Next, fret the D string at the second fret. This gives you E. Tune your high E from this. Again this will be an octave.

Voila! Strum the guitar. It should sound considerably more pleasing. If you are playing an acoustic or electric guitar by yourself this should work delightfully. If you are playing with other instruments it can take some real effort to find a harmoniousness between all the separate instruments, but I think that if you try this approach you will begin to get a taste of the difference between tuning to a machine and tuning to natural acoustic principles.

But then, what if you are in a loud rock band or a large group where everybody uses the same tuning machine and everyone is in a hurry and no one has the time or inclination to listen to you rant about acoustic principles and esoteric philosophy? Then I will offer you this approach:

Tune the guitar as usual to the machine.
Tune the G string slightly flat by about 2 cents. Make sure that the B string is not flat.
The B. string can be raised ever so slightly. Perhaps one cent or even 1/2. Experiment with it.

If you have been using the other approach to tuning you should start to develop an ear for yourself. In any case, this approach can help significantly. Neither method can recover the full acoustic balance because all the frets are placed according to equal temperament. As long as we insist on being able to play in every key at the same time we will suffer this tradeoff. Enjoy.

Quoted from http://www.richardlloyd.com/lessons/index.htm

I'm going to try the method, JB. I have an addictive personality and I just can't say no.

I tune everything by ear. My soul vibrates to a perfect E.
I do tune using harmonics on my electrics plugged in. It seems to sound best for playing loud bar chords. My acoustic, I strum a G and adjust.

I love to tune by ear. The proper relationship between the G and B strings depends on what key you'll be playing in. I always retune if I'm moving from a song in Emaj, Amaj, or Dmaj to one in Cmaj or Gmaj (or their relative minors) or vice versa. And each instrument is just a little different anyway.

Never tune to a piano, except to get one note (I agree it's best to start with low E, although convention says to start with the A string) or a rough approximation for all 6. I've never used a tuning machine, though I can see the benefits if there's a drummer in the room (can you guys ever stop playing for a full minute?) or a noisy, impatient crowd.

I don't play in bands, so I've always been curious: what's the best way for the guitarists to tune with the bassist?

Mostess wrote:The proper relationship between the G and B strings depends on what key you'll be playing in. I always retune if I'm moving from a song in Emaj, Amaj, or Dmaj to one in Cmaj or Gmaj (or their relative minors) or vice versa.

Why is that?

Generic wrote:

Mostess wrote:The proper relationship between the G and B strings depends on what key you'll be playing in. I always retune if I'm moving from a song in Emaj, Amaj, or Dmaj to one in Cmaj or Gmaj (or their relative minors) or vice versa.

Why is that?

I'll second that why. Or ask if there's more information not stated, such as "when playing open strings" or something. Since the guitar can be played in many positions, the harmonic role of any given string is constantly changing, unlike a piano or un-tempered keyboard where each string is a dedicated pitch that therefore has defined relationships to others. With a guitar this is only the case for specific fingerings, or when played strictly in 1st position, etc.

Even on a piano, temperament is a balance between what is proper and what is pleasing to the ear.

Ken

Anyone else harmonically tune their electric? I'll tune my E string and harmonically tune the rest. I've notice that after I tune like that then click on my electric tuner on my POD, they are just slightly off center, but still in the brackets. But I personally can feel/hear the difference when I'm playing bar chords, which is pretty much all I play on my harder stuff. The chords just seem more solid and the sustain improves.

ken wrote:Even on a piano, temperament is a balance between what is proper and what is pleasing to the ear.

Indeed. My query is: why is the G - B string relationship perceived differently than any others unless specific fingerings are being used? Two of the most affected intervals in an untempered (is that even a word?) scale are the 3rd and the 7th. Mostess' comment was about the relationship between the G and the B strings. For instance, when the tuning affects 3rds and 7ths between these two strings, then that's going to invoke the traditional modal and harmonica gravity of these intervals to various degrees. But if you're playing an open G (3rd string) and an octave above on the 2nd string, 8th fret and it's a little "flat" then there's an entirely different effect that may not be so pleasing. Likewise, if you double notes in the same octave (B on the 3rd string 4th fret, and an open B on the 2nd string) to reinforce the third in a G-maj chord, you'll get wildly different reactions depending on the context, since they may very well present unsavory dissonance. Hence you'll sound "out of tune" instead of "human" or "earthy". (these are just examples, I hope you get what I mean)

On a keyboard instrument, the key you play in determines all of these relationships. It's entirely different.

Yes, BLT. I usually tune by harmonics in a similar fashion.

I pretty much lost my ability to tune by ear with the advent of electronic tuners, much in the way I can no longer spell without spellcheck of some sort. So I was happy when I tried this method that my guitar worked out just about like this:

jb wrote:Tune the G string slightly flat by about 2 cents. Make sure that the B string is not flat.
The B. string can be raised ever so slightly. Perhaps one cent or even 1/2. Experiment with it.

... when I checked it electronically. My high E was slightly sharp, too. Still, not bad and yes - pleasing to the ear.

And BLT, I do use the harmonic method when in a pinch. I find them easy to "hear." Usually I start with an A, though.

Timeout, hold the phone! You're supposed to tune these things?! Gah!

I don't know why it is the G and B strings that are most likely to need to be re-tuned when trying to tune "by ear" (that is, not equal-tempered) but I agree that is the case in my experience.

I usually tune electronically these days, though. (And then forget to retune between takes, so by the time I lay down the keeper take the guitar is out of tune again)

Generic wrote:

Mostess wrote:The proper relationship between the G and B strings depends on what key you'll be playing in. I always retune if I'm moving from a song in Emaj, Amaj, or Dmaj to one in Cmaj or Gmaj (or their relative minors) or vice versa.

Why is that?

Not sure. Here's my experience:

I mostly play chords that use lots of open strings. My favorite fingering of a Gmaj is with no 3rd (GxDGDG). My favorite fingering of E is the standard (EBEG#BE). All I know is if I'm playing in a key that's related to Gmaj, I want that P5 between the G string and the D on the B string to be nice and wide and perfect so that no-3rd-G chord really sings. But if I'm playing in a key that's related to Emaj, I want the m3 between the G# on the G string and the open B string to be a little narrower (or the M3 between the E on the D string and the G# on the G to be a little wider, perhaps), so I need to tune up the G or tune down the B. Some adjustments on the E string are usually necessary, too, but it's not so predictable. It's really just a couple cents here and there, but with perfect 5ths and 4ths (and octaves) it really makes a difference.

It's true that if I'm up and down the neck a lot, there's all sorts of other considerations to deal with. I assume a tuning machine splits all the important differences, though I'm betting that there's no such thing as true well-tempered tuning on a guitar. But I really don't know enough about tuning justification and guitar-making to say anything definitive.

Some of you guys, especially Mostess, should check out Buzz Feiten. I've played a guitar with a Feiten setup, and you could certainly tell the difference.

In my opinion, a guitar is supposed to chorus with itself, so I always tune to standard, regardless of what key I'm playing in, but I certainly see the merit in your method, as well as the Buzz Feiten thing.

Has anyone posted this yet. I can't believe how crazy the frets are:

http://www.truetemperament.com/site/index.php

They're Flash-intensive Web site makes me puke, but that looks like a really awesome idea, even more crazy than those fanned fret necks. But what happens when your neck warps?

EDIT: Aargh, and they're vides are in WMV and QuickTime, no Flash? Are these guys from 1999?

Damn, that Meantone Blues neck is crazy! Never seen anything like it.