The Song Fight Bulletin Board

QotD: What harshly honest review have you gotten that helped you improve?

Mine wasn't actually a review, but Blue once posted some comment to Josh Woodward about the modern folk singer-songwriter genre. I wish I could remember exactly what he said... um, something something hate something modern folkie songs are hook-less. Singer-songwriters don't bother with trying to be 'catchy'. That one idea completely changed how I approached my songwriting. Well, it's not like I'm writing hook laden ditties now, but it used to be that my writing any kind of chorus was just an afterthought. These days when I sit down with my guitar I'll still start out by writing the first verse first... only now, if I don't also have a decent chorus knocked out in an hour, I move on to a different idea. That method weeds out a lot of potential mediocrity.

QotD: I don't think I've gotten any harsh reviews so far. I've gotten the occasional helpful comment, though. Many people were kind enough to point out problems in my lead vocals, for example. I don't think I've improved yet, though; any progress I'm making has to be up to chance since I can't afford real training for now.
As for other comments, e.g. about lack of development... reviews can hardly be overly harsh if I agree with them. There was one review about how simplistic a song of mine was. It was totally correct in that, but being simplistic was sort of the point of that particular song. I still appreciate reviews like that, though.
Final thought about the entire "big old meanie review" discussion: telling people what they did wrong is just one side of the coin. You can only get better if you also know what you're doing right.

QOTD: From the Dumbrella days, if I remember the time period correctly, "I hate your voice. I wish you would die." Hmmm, wait. While it fits the harsh category, I don't think it helped me improve any. Other than improving my attitude about reviews, that is.

DRC: Dreamed I was lost in a gigantic run-down airport. Tasted like Chernobyl-era Russia. Wound up at a train station (yes, in the airport), and heard Mad Dog (fronting the Pathetic Wannabes) at a stage/cafe across the tracks. The bar car/horizontal elevator had taken my last $20 (no drinks, just the transportation fee) to get me out to the furthest reaches of the airport, as far as it was possible to be from my gate--I was lost, remember?--but I ran across the train tracks to catch the show anyway. Turns out it was their last number, but # was setting up to play (yay!). Spud's hair was white, and shaped like an Oompa-Loompa's hair, up in that Tastee-Freeze soft-serve swirl. Yellow bowling shirts. Somewhere in there my pants fell completely off, and as I was gathering them up, change (2 "gold" US dollars, a $2 Loony, and a $2 Australian coin) and 2 guitar picks fell out of a pocket, right at some leather-girl's feet. She was picking them up and pocketing them when I said "Look, you can keep the money, but give me my guitar picks back." I woke up before I found out what she returned, if anything at all.

Though on an emergency coffee run this morning IRL, I was relieved to find the 2^3 still in my pants pocket.

06/01/01: mc_frontalot
Beginning with the reigning champ, octothorpe: you suck, go eat a cheese wheel and choke on it, boooooo, booooo I say, and that said I love the way you pronounce "arbi-trator."

06/07/01: mc_frontalot
I think this week is a toss up btw jonas and frankie, although I offer kudos ALL 'ROUND because the ring is chock full of dope-ass songs. With the exception of octothorpe -- why did you not choke on cheese wheel as instructed??

06/19/01: mc_frontalot
special prize to octothorpe for wheel-choking as per request. I no longer hate you worse than plague lumps.

01/10/02: mc_frontalot
#: okay if I could have gotten this shit rocking at comp USA free internet terminal fifty people would have come by to find out about songfight and it would have been like a songfight booth at comdex or something, I mean you just can't ignore this stuff. You can run holding your ears, but you can't pretend it's not there. I have total understanding of why frankie hates you people. It's all there, the disregard for things like pleasing vocal tone, craftsmanship (i mean except the lyric, that's always like a goddamn novella), the all+kitchen sink approach to the texture of the recordings. When you guys started I was sure you were shooting for irritating-superwacky but it's like a fucking sledge hammer, week after week, fucking octothorpe, you guys are just fucking LIKE THAT. IT'S YOU!! YOU PEOPLE ARE ACTUALLY OCTOTHORPE. I'm with patrick clayton, you guys rule. This and every song.

See? We got better. And, we wore him down.

07/11/01: frankie big face
octothorpe - nice annoying hum at the beginning. maybe you should go buy a three-prong adaptor. thanks for keeping it short this week.

One of my favorite reviews ever. We took it to heart.

QOTD: There have been many reviews on my music that have been very constructive and made me think further about my approach. I think I've evolved, for better or worse, since I've joined Song Fight. One thing that I can say for sure is that I've learned to be much more efficient in my song development. That's the only reason I say, for better or worse.

But, when a reviewer makes a comment and is telling you how you should create your art and that his way is the only right way, I will never take that persons comments with any seriousness again. Sure, I'll make comments from a production stand point quite often, but I always say it as a "try it" type comment to see how it works, because in my head it sounds like a good idea. Trial and error are the ways that I've found things that work well together. I'm always learning new ways to make music, "for better or worse."

On the flip side: My review style is more to point out the good things I like in a song. I have found that most people here know the places in their songs that are weak or need improvement. They will improve on those issues with practice. Plus there are plenty of people here that will only point out the bad. I don't point out the good in a song just for good balance, I honestly believe that positive feedback on the good points helps a musician's energy, which results in improvement.

QotD: I have never once had a helpful review *crosses arms and looks all serious and stuff*

lol, sorry I had to try and keep my rep going.

Ooh! I thought of a recent thing. Every single week, Jast tells me the vocals are off pitch. Well, I *finally* can hear it. Took me awhile to catch on, but now if I re-listen to a Quimby tune the pitchiness drives me nuts. Maybe it will go the way of my Boston accent and just magically disappear one day, now that I can actually hear it....

(edit: I guess that's not harsh. But honest, & definitely helpful...)

Originally posted in this thread: http://songfight.net/forums/viewtopic.p ... =stab#p778


The very first song I submitted to SongFight prompted the following review from Richard Wreckdom:

"People usually play music for one of many reasons: They truly enjoy making music, They are arrogant, Money. Why do you do it? Figure out why you're doing it, and stab it in the chest."

Harsh, but definately fair - a very valuable review.
If nothing else, all of my subsequent songs have been better than that first one.

Caravan Ray wrote:The very first song I submitted to SongFight prompted the following review from Richard Wreckdom:

"People usually play music for one of many reasons: They truly enjoy making music, They are arrogant, Money. Why do you do it? Figure out why you're doing it, and stab it in the chest."

What a Dick.

QOTD: I think that I have gotten a lot more out of the positive comments than the negative ones. When someone says "I like how you did x" Then that is something I can use again in the future. Telling me that my vocals suck doesn't help me. I'm stuck with the voice I've got.

I haven't been here all that long, but now that you've got me thinking back, the thoughtful reviews have been way more helpful than the harsh ones. Just yesterday I got some very helpful advice from Irwin in the chatroom, about something specific I could have tried with the lyrics of my last song. He could have been harsh about it, but that wouldn't have made his point any more useful.

Being harsh for the sake of being harsh doesn't make you a better reviewer. Don't get me wrong, I not advocating Song Love either... lets review honestly. Lets be constructive. If it's really about helping (and not the sick thrill we get from putting someone else down) I submit that it's more helpful to be thoughtful than harsh. After all, it's just your subjective opinion, and what Chris said bears repeating:

BLT wrote:But, when a reviewer makes a comment and is telling you how you should create your art and that his way is the only right way, I will never take that persons comments with any seriousness again.

I thought I chime in to relate one of the first review I ever got ( on a diff forum):

some ahole wrote: I usually am an eternal optimist and with Christmas just passing, I
sat and listened and wanted find something encouraging to say but

That simply stank. I'm spraying Lysol all over my studio cuz that
stuff stank so bad. There's got to be a joke in this, right?
Triumph, the comic insult dog put you up to this, right? Intonation
was the least of the problems. I've got an idea. The next time you
record, don't plug the guitar IN! : -

It was helpfull in the sense that I stopped buying guitars for a few years.
OUCH!

Steve Durand wrote:Telling me that my vocals suck doesn't help me. I'm stuck with the voice I've got.

I don't know man. I submitted some tunes to slicethepie a year ago, and I got torn apart with 0/10 scores. People told me I couldn't sing worth shit and I considered quitting altogether. But hearing that got me to realize that hey ... maybe my voice does suck, and I should put in some effort to make it listenable. So I screamed and sang like crazy in my car for the last year, and I think I've got something better going on now.

I guess what I'm trying to say is ... from personal experience, I don't feel that anybody has to have a terrible voice. It takes work though.

And I guess I'm also trying to say that nasty, apparently non-constructive criticism can work. Maybe my teenage angst and hatred of other people's opinions helps me fight back though.

Albatross wrote:

Caravan Ray wrote:The very first song I submitted to SongFight prompted the following review from Richard Wreckdom:

"People usually play music for one of many reasons: They truly enjoy making music, They are arrogant, Money. Why do you do it? Figure out why you're doing it, and stab it in the chest."

What a Dick.

Yes - good old Dick! Shame the Wreckdom boys don't fight anymore.

Rone Rivendale wrote:
lol, sorry I had to try and keep my rep going.

I don't see where that's a good thing...

QotD: Blue Lang pretty much took me under his wing (for some reason), and gave me a lot of support and good advice, even while kicking my butt every once in while... Basically, whenever someone mentioned something I didn't understand in a review of one of my songs, I asked for clarification. In this manner, I learned literally everything I know about recording, starting with the very fact that multitrack recording software exists, all the way down to how to use certain effects. The learning is never done.

Wish I had saved some of the individual reviews... I kind of assumed they would always be online.

Reist,
I hear what you're saying but I've been working on my singing for over 30 years.

To quote Dirty Harry: "A man's got to know his limitations"

I've gotten a lot of advice that I've taken note of and thought it was good advice that at some point I'd put to use but none of it has been in the form of a harsh review because I can't really think of any actual harsh reviews, usually the people who'd likely give me a harsh review just dismiss the song outright and don't bother commenting on it, which is their choice not mine because I appreciate all actual explanations of why someone doesn't like a song even though it apparently doesn't appear that way. And if they didn't think it was a song, maybe they could explain why it wasn't a song and what it would've needed to be a song to them.

Bitter much?

QotD: At the very least, a harsh review makes me say, "Well, fuck that guy...I'll show him next time!" and then I work that much harder on the next fight I'm in.

inevitableguy wrote:QotD: At the very least, a harsh review makes me say, "Well, fuck that guy...I'll show him next time!" and then I work that much harder on the next fight I'm in.

That's the spirit! Revenge is a dish best served musically.

Incidentally, "Well, fuck that guy...I'll show him next time! I'm gonna work that much harder on the next fight I'm in" is exactly what Hitler said after he heard about the Treaty of Versailles. He wasn't one to let a few bad reviews put him off. Youngsters today just lack that sort of commitment.

Yeah, man. We should all be more like Hitler!

Reïst wrote:Bitter much?

Totally.

But seriously, to touch on the singing thing that was brought up, I've been thinking about it, for at least the last week, due to a combination of hearing an old song from when I thought I couldn't sing and apparently it was just self-loathing because I don't remember ever sounding that good but at the time, I sure worked at it, the work that I put in sure paid off, even if I didn't notice it at the time and when I started back up making music again, my voice had I thought gotten worse due to smoking and not practicing and I kind of embraced it but this weeks song that never got finished made me start thinking that maybe I should try to hone it more than I do, maybe there's something still there.

I don't know how much and maybe it is a lost cause but maybe this weeks song would've gotten done if I did try to hone whatever is still there. I started thinking about it more when I responded to jast's suggestion that I learn to sing and I was just going to explain why the song sounded like it did vocally and why I liked it but then I was like, hey, you know, I don't really practice or test it out much, maybe I should... and maybe I should've just agreed with him instead of try to explain why the song sounded like it did.

Its just that practicing singing beyond warming up when you're fine with how you sound in general and there's no real reward, its hard to get motivated. I play my instruments all the time for fun and practice and the voice is an instrument too, so it shouldn't be that hard but its kind of boring and probably not anything I would stay vigilant on.