The Song Fight Bulletin Board

So I'm going to be getting my Xmas bonus relatively soon, and I plan on buying a new instrument. I've got three candidates: a bass, a keyboard, or a drum kit. I'd like to breakdown the merits of each, and then get opinions from y'all as to what I should buy.

Bass - The easiest one for me to start playing right away. It would provide a good pad for songs and, in theory, would allow greater flexibility in my solo recording efforts. The negative is that it isn't that far removed from a guitar and may not enhance recordings as much as a different instrument. Probably the most cost effective instrument. If I bought this, I might still have $$$ left for a mandolin and/or misc stuff like shakers, pedals, etc.

Keyboard - Relatively easy for me to pick up as I understand the basic concept of playing it. Given the synth and midi capabilities, this would provide the most diverse options to recordings, even allowing recording of drum beats or bass lines. Realistically though, I probably won't do much drum/bass-wise with the keyboard, so the benefit on that angle is hit/miss. As to cost, I'd want to get a pretty good keyboard because, what's the point of getting one that doesn't sound good when recorded? So I might have to spend a bit more on it than if I bought a bass or drum kit.

Drums - This is what is sorely missing from my recordings, but how feasible is it? My rhythmic abilities are.... questionable, so there will at least be a huge learning curve. I'm imagining it would be at least 6 months before I could even attempt to record decent drum beats, so I would certainly have to take lessons to make sure I 'got it'. Cost, I'm guessing I could get a decent kit for $500 to $700, but I really don't know what to look for. I certainly don't want something that sounds like shit.

So, what'dy'all think? Which instrument would be best for me to get to provide the most realistic improvements to my recordings?

After we figure out what I'm going to get, I'd like to get opinions on which model to get as I know nothing about good bass, keys, or kits. My budget is probably $1000 at the max.

You should seriously look into a good library of multi track drum loops. You've made it pretty clear that playing drums and programming a machine doesn't work well for you. So I say look into a "good" drum loop library. Something like this >> http://www.discretedrums.com/Series_One ... 01-pro.htm

Just piece your loops together, tweak them, customize them, no muss no fuss. So simple, even a caveman can do it.

Well, for $1000 you can get all that and probably have some left over!

Bass - Get an SX bass from Rondo Music. I suggest the SX SPJ Ash. A P/J bass gives you solid tone with options. $200

Keys - Are you a piano player or do you just want to be able to add some synth lines and such? If you just want to add a few notes here and there, I have the M-Audio Key Rig 25. It works really well and I have become fairly enamored of the Key Rig software. Only $99. You could also get the larger M-Audio KeyRig 49 for the same price! There are plenty of other controller like this if you wanted more keys - Yamaha KX61 for example. $199

Drums - If you bought the above bass and keys, you have $600 or $700 left to spend on a drum kit. Here my best advice is to buy used. Look for a Pearl Export kit with hardware and decent cymbals for $500 or under. Patience can really pay off here as you can get some pretty sweet deals sometimes. If you must buy new, check out Pacific/PDP drums. They are made by DW and seem to be surprisingly nice. for the money.

Micing up your drums is a whole other story.

Have fun buying gear!

Be well,
Ken

Thanks guys! Still taking suggestions and info too. BTW, big BTW, I am a lefty, so the bass would have to come in a lefty model. :{o)

I imagine the drums will work left or right. lol

ken wrote:Keys - Are you a piano player or do you just want to be able to add some synth lines and such? If you just want to add a few notes here and there, I have the M-Audio Key Rig 25. It works really well and I have become fairly enamored of the Key Rig software. Only $99. You could also get the larger M-Audio KeyRig 49 for the same price! There are plenty of other controller like this if you wanted more keys - Yamaha KX61 for example. $199

I'm not a "piano player", but I intend to have a fully usable keyboard (that doesn't require the computer to play) whenever I get one. Would the KeyRig be that, or the Yamaha?

As to the drum loops, I've downloaded tons and many sound great. My problem is in my head. I have difficulty writing a song on the guitar and then understanding what drum loops match it. I would try several different loops and just try to play along with them, but the riffs/progression didn't feel like it matched. By contrast, I've jammed with drummers who made the beat sound the way it is supposed to, and I've started writing songs with a drum beat BEFORE the guitar part, and that has been fine. So I'm chalking it up to something wrong in my head rather than using loops. Ergo, I think I need to go with a real instrument.

Check out the lefties: http://www.rondomusic.com/BassLeft.html

You might want to find a 73-88 key keyboard instead of a controller. I've seen quite a few nice electric pianos on craigslist.

Ken

Wages wrote: As to the drum loops, I've downloaded tons and many sound great. My problem is in my head. I have difficulty writing a song on the guitar and then understanding what drum loops match it. I would try several different loops and just try to play along with them, but the riffs/progression didn't feel like it matched. By contrast, I've jammed with drummers who made the beat sound the way it is supposed to, and I've started writing songs with a drum beat BEFORE the guitar part, and that has been fine. So I'm chalking it up to something wrong in my head rather than using loops. Ergo, I think I need to go with a real instrument.

Sorry, that gave me a chuckle because I've tried to play to your songs before. You can arrange loops to fit time sig changes etc, but you're right, a real drummer can speed up and slow down to stay with you. But to me, that's very unappealing to listen to. I'd get annoyed very quickly. If you did force yourself to play to beats, your timing would improve.

But then again, who the hell am I to say that music should stay on time or in key for that matter. I only know what I've been subjected to my whole life that started back when cavemen would beat on logs and they noticed that when Kennith beat on the log, they could all dance really good to it, but when Phillip did it, they would get all confused and start falling and tripping over each other.

By the way, I'm not talking about free drum loop down loads or fruity loops. I talking about a high quality "multi track" library of real drums recorded in the highest quality environment with the ability to set to different BPMs and have hit strength change with speed, individually tweak each drums level and sound, to adjust the room and overhead mics, etc. IE: $250 - $500 set of multi track loops. 100s of verses, choruses, bridges, fills, intros, endings, etc. Individual kick, snare, stereo toms, hi hat, cymbals, stereo overhead and stereo room, etc. But with the ease of copy and paste. I've seen the future Phil, and the future looks mighty fine.

[quote=Wages]
Realistically though, I probably won't do much drum/bass-wise with the keyboard
[/quote]

Why not?

If you have three choices and can only choose one, then why not get the one that can emulate the other two? I know, keyboard drums aren't great (I've been relying on them for six years now), but you can fake bass pretty convincingly on a keyboard.

On the other hand, Ken raises a good point; for your budget, you can probably get all three.

On the other other hand, might I suggest option 4: Singing Lessons?

Generic wrote:On the other other hand, might I suggest option 4: Singing Lessons?

Touche! I took singing lessons for a while. My problem is that I get too emotional in the singing, becoming the enthusiastic but sad karaoke singer. I can deliver the notes correctly, but I don't practice it, so it takes a lot of effort to get them there. So yeah, I'm lazy and it affects my performance. Although, I have considered going to a different instructor. Hmmmm..... well, that could be done anyway. he he

Billy's Little Trip wrote: Sorry, that gave me a chuckle because I've tried to play to your songs before. You can arrange loops to fit time sig changes etc, but you're right, a real drummer can speed up and slow down to stay with you. But to me, that's very unappealing to listen to. I'd get annoyed very quickly. If you did force yourself to play to beats, your timing would improve.

But then again, who the hell am I to say that music should stay on time or in key for that matter. I only know what I've been subjected to my whole life that started back when cavemen would beat on logs and they noticed that when Kennith beat on the log, they could all dance really good to it, but when Phillip did it, they would get all confused and start falling and tripping over each other.

By the way, I'm not talking about free drum loop down loads or fruity loops. I talking about a high quality "multi track" library of real drums recorded in the highest quality environment with the ability to set to different BPMs and have hit strength change with speed, individually tweak each drums level and sound, to adjust the room and overhead mics, etc. IE: $250 - $500 set of multi track loops. 100s of verses, choruses, bridges, fills, intros, endings, etc. Individual kick, snare, stereo toms, hi hat, cymbals, stereo overhead and stereo room, etc. But with the ease of copy and paste. I've seen the future Phil, and the future looks mighty fine.

The truth comes out! If I played to a beat, people would be more likely to collab with me.

There is a place for changing the timing, but that's not to say I'm doing it the best ways or intentionally. As to the key, yeah, I really just need to sing the correct notes.

You're swaying my opinion of the loops, but the question is, how do I find a beat that matches the rhythm I am/should be playing? That's part of the problem I've had trouble doing that even when I recorded to a metronome perfectly. I can't imagine what the drums should sound like, or if I do, I can't find a loop that matches that. Does that make sense? It's kind of foreign to me. However, when I play with a band or to someone who's recorded drums to my music, I can get it fine. ????? I think my brain is fucked in regards to drums!!

I need to be able to try it before I lay down that kind of cash on something that I don't have confidence in. That's why I mentioned a drum kit. With the actual kit, I'm sure I can learn it with lessons and then be able to record eventually. With the loops, I may get too frustrated to try (where I'm currently at). Just tryin' to be realistic!

I'm sure there are you tube videos tutorials out there with guys writing a song, then arranging drum loops. But I've considered doing it myself to help a couple awesome "older" musician friends of mine that I'm trying to teach how to do it.

But Phil, I know exactly what you're telling me and I believe it's because you're thinking about the process in reverse as far as writing and recording a song from your DAW. You can't start with recording your guitar, then try to layer programmed drums to it. You have to start with the drums. Sure, it's a whole different deal when you are playing live with people.

But let's focus for a quick second on arranging a song with loops or programming drums.
When you have 50 different beats to choose from in your library, you are easily going to find your base color. There are only so many standard beats a drummer can do and the rest is just his own personal fills for color, and there are only so many things the human body is capable of. So a good library will pretty much cover everything. Let's say you find a nice shuffle beat, you'll set the BPM to the speed you want the song and BAM, now you have your base. So you're playing along to your beat and you know where your chorus needs to be, so you go to your shuffle beat group and find a nice chorus to go with it, BAM now your chorus is done. You do the same for the bridge and repeat until your song is done. You now have drums for the verses, choruses and bridge. You can play to it and the timing is perfect.

NOW, you want to add some texture and color. So you add some awesome breaks, crashes and bad ass rolls, etc. All of which are just copy and pasted to the tracks from your shuffle group in your library. So now you have very colorful drums for the song.

Now go work on a cool intro and ending. Do you want to end hard and fast? Do you want it loose and dirty? All you are doing at this point is tacking on an ending and intro, because the drums are done.

Now your drums are done. It's time to layer guitars and vocals over your drums.

I've been playing with Sonoma Wireworks' RiffWorks T4 whilst procrastinating on the actual making of music. The drums part of it, anyway.

Though I'd rather sequence drums with the Reason/MIDI keyboard one-two punch, or even sit down behind my kit (oh the horror!), RiffWorks T4 might be what the doctor ordered for Wages at this point & time for his drumming/sequencing needs.

And it's free (though somewhat crippled).

Rabid Garfunkel wrote:I've been playing with Sonoma Wireworks' RiffWorks T4 whilst procrastinating on the actual making of music. The drums part of it, anyway.

Though I'd rather sequence drums with the Reason/MIDI keyboard one-two punch, or even sit down behind my kit (oh the horror!), RiffWorks T4 might be what the doctor ordered for Wages at this point & time for his drumming/sequencing needs.

And it's free (though somewhat crippled).

Wow, for a free program, Riffworks is pretty cool. I will say that I've gotten spoiled with Cubase. But I watched this Riffworks tutorial and it looks damn good. And yes, I think this could help our friend, Mr Wages.
[youtube]<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/5qBwwyVMW2E&hl ... ram><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/5qBwwyVMW2E&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>[/youtube]

OK, I'm downloading Riffworks right now. I hope it can account for the lag when I record.

Billy's Little Trip wrote:You can't start with recording your guitar

Do you mean that I can't first write the song on the guitar? I ask because I'd feel stifled if I had to pick a drum beat before I ever get the inspiration for the tune. I know, I've tried that approach.

Wages wrote:

Billy's Little Trip wrote:You can't start with recording your guitar

Do you mean that I can't first write the song on the guitar? I ask because I'd feel stifled if I had to pick a drum beat before I ever get the inspiration for the tune. I know, I've tried that approach.

No no, you can WRITE however you like. (Personally, I usually write either entirely in my head or with a bass guitar.) He's saying that when you're laying down the actual RECORDING, you start with the rhythm track, particularly if you've got tempo variations or for some other reason aren't using a click track.

Wages wrote:

Billy's Little Trip wrote:You can't start with recording your guitar

Do you mean that I can't first write the song on the guitar? I ask because I'd feel stifled if I had to pick a drum beat before I ever get the inspiration for the tune. I know, I've tried that approach.

No. I always start by writing my song first on acoustic. It's the same thing if you play with a band. I'd write a song, meet for band practice, play the song all folksy on my acoustic, the drummer would start tapping out a beat to fit, the bass player would follow to get the chords and changes. Then we plug in, turn everything to 11 and I'd scream into the mic with guitars a'blazin'.

In your case, you will write your song on your guitar, then after it's done, find the kind of beat and tempo you want for your song. Then build your drum tracks. After your drum tracks are done, now you can record your guitar tracks over them. Just like the guy in the Riffworks vid above. He had his guitar parts worked out before he started.

I'd say just get a FleshLight(tm). Not that I have personal experience to recommend one, but hey. Does a guitar feel like a real vagina? No, it does not.

Sure, but can you play Billy Squire's - Stroke the star spangled banner on a FleshLight (tm)? No sir, you can not.

Can you play a guitar with one hand? Not easily, I'll say that much.

dude, I play one handed an awful lot of the time.
Its a great way to practise, and it makes your left hand strong and fast.
Scales like a fury.



Wages,

Why would ya want a keyboard with everything in, not just a controller. Not that I say thats wrong or nothing, just wondering. Cos just as a controller, I dont think you can get a lot better than one of these and with peny of good cash left over for other goodies

I like having a keyboard with internal noises so I can fire it up and noodle around with ideas without having to turn on the whole rig.

Me$$iah wrote:dude, I play one handed an awful lot of the time.

TMI